Hi, I'm here with Eric Brown of AWS, a good friend to Northstar, a good friend to myself, and I wanted to talk about the conversation that you and Tony had earlier. It was a conversation about career advice that you would give to young professionals. And so I want to just continue that conversation and go a little bit deeper. But before we get into that conversation, could you share a little bit about your career background in tech? Sure. So Eric Brown I'm a Midwestern boy through and through with some Southern sensibilities on my my parents side. I'm an HBCU grad. So as you know, as a, as a Morehouse man, it going over to Howard you know, brought up some intense rivalries, but you know, lots of love and shout out to all of my Howard friends. Spent a little time in the military, which brought me over to the D. C. area shortly after that, got out and became a contractor where I've. Either written code or sold software to people who wrote additional code for the past 20 years. So love that career. All right. Thank you. Oh, you've given me so much to chew on here. So thank you for being here today I'm curious, what drew you to the first in person North Star Homecoming event? Ah, so I have to give a shout out to one of my contemporaries, Kendrick Faison, over at Spatial GIS. We had spent a lot of time mentoring you know, young African American men and women. And so I guess he, he was involved with MoStar in some capacity. And so he said, hey, Eric, you've got to be a part of this. I think you have an opportunity to contribute. And after I took a look, I said, yeah, this seems phenomenal. So I'm thankful for that opportunity. Well thank you for accepting the call. Okay, so let's jump into the conversation here. So GIS is ubiquitous. It is the technology that is least seen but most used, I could say, and given the profound impact of GIS on so many communities, could you share a story of the kinds of impact that GIS has had on the communities that you interact with or the communities that you serve as part of your profession? So, I'm going to give you a commercial example, and then a work example. So a nice commercial example, I think a lot of people are really familiar with is the concept and the scale of an application like Waze. Okay, not only is it GPS, but it's real time traffic information. And so for a lot of people that are. Commuting in the D. C. area, figuring out where all the traffic jams are and getting where the speed cameras are. That's a great. It's a great bit of software that people use. Professionally, anyone that that creates software that I'm just going to make a very general distinction that can figure out what a tank is versus a Toyota. And the shortest period of time, those are the ones that always have a great impact on the customers that I serve in the Defense Department. And then specifically, how has GIS impacted you personally and the communities that you are in on a day to day basis? The communities that I'm in, so I'll refer back to some of the civic work that I do just in underdeveloped communities. So that ability to look at where's, some of the underserved. Portions of that community are by demographic and being able to just list that out and disseminate that information in a very quick, concise, easy to consume fashion helps out a lot. So, this is whether or not it's kids that don't have codes, kids that may or may not. Have food places where there's an opportunity for extra education. Those that's where, you know, just real simple GIS software can get a good representation where need is in the communities that I tend to serve specifically. Okay, so you come from AWS. Amazon Web Services. How does AWS play with G-I-S? How do they interact together typically? Yeah, so two different places. One where, a big cloud provider, a big platform across multiple industries several of whom use GIS software across a myriad of different disciplines. And then we also have great partnerships with software providers and consulting companies that are NGIS that create these great bundles that get delivered to customers. Okay, so. Let's go a little bit deeper. This morning, you talked about the importance of the career pivot and more importantly, the importance of staying flexible. you were talking about was gravitating toward work that suits you. You talked about being a lifelong learner and the importance of informal learning as part of that process as well. Okay, so that's that's a great question. So, if you were to go back 25 or so years, and you had that, that student over in Morehouse and said, hey, Eric, you're going to be in the amount of time frame, 25 years, you're going to be. Working for a cloud provider, you're going to be working for this large tech company and you're going to be in the D. C. area. You're going to do stuff in defense. I probably would not have believed it. Right? So I had an idea in my mind of what I was going to do and no one was going to stop me from doing that. Right, but throughout my career, you get just enough information to see, oh, wait, I could be better served here. And I'm really thankful for a lot of people that mentored me along the way to try to steer me and say, hey, Eric, you're very good at this. You have a natural ability for X, for speaking, for explaining technical concepts. You can, you have another door that could be opened up if you refine this ability, if you've got this level of organization, if you, you name it. So, I think that ability to 2 things, really 1, just refine your skills over time through experience. Right? And then be open to the idea of applying that in a different way in a way that you may not. Having your head immediately. I think that becomes the ability to pivot quickly. And then after you've pivoted a few times, you can actually, I'm going to use a hockey, I'm going to use a Wayne Gretzky hockey analogy. You don't skate to the puck, you skate to where the puck is going, right? You, you, you understand that analogy. And so, so I'm always looking at skills and the ability to go, Hey, where is the puck going over the next. 3 to 5 years, 10 years, and then conversely go back to some of these young to a lot of younger students that are mentor and say, hey, here's where the here's kind of where the puck is going. And so this is going to be your opportunity. The things that. Want to be they're going to be available to you is going to be significantly different than what I'm doing right now. So I'm telling you this as a young, hard headed person, right? As a former young, hard headed person, that ability to pivot that ability to stay on your toes is I'm going to call it a differentiator. Right, because, think about being the you know, there are a lot of people want to go back to my grandparents that wanted hey, we're going to be the Iceman, right? That was a good, stable career, but technology and economies shift and I think it's incumbent upon us to be able to get ahead of that shift or shift as quickly as possible. I like that. Let's break that down a little bit further because you brought up a few things. You brought up the importance of listening, right? Because sometimes people are going to speak plain language to you, and sometimes they're going to speak I'm going to speak to you in coded language, right, because they might not always have the time to talk or not may not be able to speak freely and break it down for you further. They're going to impart that knowledge and then they're going to walk away. So kind of being able to read in between the lines and hear the things that's not always said. So you'll get some elders, and I've seen this in the African American community and in professional spaces where one might not be able to speak as candidly or freely, where they will nudge you and say, Hey, should you be doing that? Or perhaps if you say this a different way, it could land differently, right? And so I've always appreciated that, that. And you also mentioned, and this is something that Shannon mentioned earlier when we spoke about being brave enough to take a step back at certain points in your career and reflect and ask yourself questions like, is what I'm doing what I want to be doing? What's the next step after this one? And what's the job after this job? And so and so to the extent that you went from, from Morehouse and the arc of your career to where you are now, what role did being reflective and defining success for yourself play in where you are today? I think that played a very, very big role. And I'm going to reference one of my superpowers is time to yourself. Right, quiet time, right? And this is in the middle of having small children and, you know, families and just just taking that time to go, hey, is this what I really want to do? Am I okay with doing this? More importantly, just going to call the man in the mirror, navel gazing moment. Do I have the skills to do 2 things? Do I have the skills to do what I want to do? Or 2, I'm going to say, am I, am I overqualified to continue doing what I'm doing? Where is that next challenge? Where can I start to expand that space? 1 of the things that a director of 1 of the government agencies, I had a chance to be in a room with him. Got this was. Six or seven years ago. And you know, this guy is very famous. You've seen him on tv, and I got a chance to meet him and I, you know, I said, Hey, Mr. Person, and hey, it's great to meet you. It's an honor, you know, appreciate your service. And, you know, and I was very, I said, man, I was pumped up to meet him. And I said, man, you never would've told that person back, you know, in the Midwest, a group in the Midwest that went to an HBCU that I'd be talking to this person. And this guy looks at me and he says, son, Eric, let me explain something to you. If you would have told, you know, he was in the, you know, in the service, you would have told that young service member X number of years ago that I'd be a, you know, director of XYZ ABC, I wouldn't have believed it. So, and we're in the same room, we took different paths, but we're both here at the same time. And I'm going to tell you something, young man, never be afraid of your shadow. And I went, huh, you couldn't tell me anything after that, right? That was, you know, that was a few years ago. Can't tell me anything. And so now I try to take that, hey, embrace the space that you occupy. Right? And so that's kind of where trying to match what you do that time to self reflect, that time to learn, hey, what, what actually do I, do I need to do to get to that level? So it's important to be objective, and then it's important to, you know, have people in your corner that will speak into your life positively, negatively, you name it. But speaking into that and collecting that data to really reflect on, hey, is this where I need to be? Can I get the tools and talent to get to where you need to be, or you would like to be, or where you're meant to be? A little bit more on that later, I think. Okay, so you've mentioned a few times that you're a Morehouse Man and that you are an alum of an HBCU. Can we talk about the importance of being an HBCU student and having teachers and instructors who look like you, and what it's meant to you, your life, and then your development into adulthood and into the career space? You know what? I couldn't recommend it enough. You know, I make fun of Howard. I make fun of, you know, Kendrick went to Fages. Yeah, you know, so, you know, we had the great sibling bribery, but I cannot mention the, I cannot speak more highly about the quality HBC education that I got because two things it was the first time that I felt seen of it. As a person and not just a demographic, right? First time I had two things. First time I had professors that I'm going to say saw through the facade and says, Hey, Eric, you're way better than this. Stop mailing it in go be great. Right? And I had my calculus professor professors, all those professors that understood who I was and what I needed, even though I didn't think I needed it. To go in, to speak into my life and really help me become, set me on a path to live out my purpose. And so that is something I recommend to all of my younger brothers and sisters. Right? You know, I have nieces and nephews. I have son, you know, sons that have said, Hey, you know what? Hey, look at you. Look at your first Morehouse sweatshirt. I, I want to share in that and I want more, you know, more of us to experience that, for that reason, to be seen, because I think if you talk to a lot of us one of the bigger problems is, hey, you know what, I am just counted as a number, right? I'm over here, and in HBCU education you get seen as an individual and as a person. Yeah, yeah. And I think that there's a degree of caring about your outcomes, right, what they're going to be, and I think that it's on two levels. One, it's for who you are as a person, as Eric, but also it's a nod to our ancestors, right? We have some investment in that. Yes. Absolutely. Okay, so, I'm in a lot of tech groups, and I have seen this question, and I have seen memes around this question about how people who tend to lean more introvert, how they get perceived. And this morning you talked about Being in professional settings and really leaning into the soft skills and finding careers that line up with who you are. So what does that look like for an introvert to lean into those soft skills? Okay, so I get that question a lot. So I'm going to date myself here and bring up a show I used to watch with my grandma called Dragnet. So they had the cops, and the cops would get to the, crime scene, and they would start to do the interview, and, the guy Friday, he'd open up the notebook, and people would start telling the story, and then he would just say, just the facts, ma'am, just the facts, and so for my introverts, those soft skills begin with just the facts. Okay, what are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to do it? What are you measured by? Okay, if you stick to that as a baseline, okay, what are you supposed to do? And then the soft skills, communication, time management, listening skills, those are probably say the top 3 the ability to tie those 3 together with just those facts helps you out and builds that confidence to actually speak up. Right? So those metrics matter. So that's a way for introverts to have an impact without being gregarious. So I will say probably three days out of five, I tend to lean more introvert. I do less talking and more listening. And, typically, when I am in a more reserved and introverted headspace, I'm connecting the dots. I'm thinking about what hasn't been said. I am looking for an opportunity to jump in and contribute to the conversation. Some days I take that opportunity and then you're sharing that information as well. Okay, so let's go a little bit deeper because Black women in particular are perceived in a certain way, especially if they tend to lean introvert. And so, based on your knowledge and experience, what advice would you give, one, for a person? To be able to be authentically themselves, but also to counteract that perception. Not that we should, but there are some times in some moments where you want the noise to be gone and you want to lean into that moment and be perceived in a specific way so that what you have to say gets heard. Mm-Hmm.. Mm-Hmm.. So here's what is, so something that I've learned that's been fascinating, right? So I've had the pleasure and the honor of having a lot of black female contemporaries, okay? And it seemed like, and I, had to learn this myself, right? Because, you know, I don't, I didn't have that experience. And so that first, that first step. And being seen, and we've talked about that, is that ability to wear your hair naturally, and that is something that I've always taken for granted because, you know, I'm a man, I can wear my hair or lack thereof any way I want, right? But for Black women, that's been a problem and something I've had to learn and understand and empathize with, right? So that's like step one, being able to just something as simple that something that I'm taking it not even taking advantage, something that I've just completely overlooked and to just wear your hair naturally and then that level of comfort. And then conversely to that, that is, you know, your natural hair is so different, right? You. And then you combine that with a natural leaning towards an introvert and it's different. And as a human, we all have this. Oh, my God, you look different. Something must be wrong with you. And I'm going to approach you with apprehension. Right? So, 1st off, that's a, that's a them thing. Right? So, hey, you know what? I'm a big advocate of that. The 2nd thing for my introvert sisters that maybe look unapproachable. I've seen that, you know, I've worked with soldiers and, you know coworkers that have been a on not even that have the appearance of being unapproachable. Right. So, we'll, we'll, you know, we'll bring in the the RBF, right? And I go, Hey, you know so I'll, I'll tell you a story of I was working on a project and it was, you know, it was a big project and the lead like engineer, systems engineer. Super duper 500 pound brain was someone that, you know, was a black female that had, you know, an RBF. And so, as we're going in, so I'm on the team, and, hey, Eric, you know, we're going to go do this in XYZ ABC. And hey, just as a heads up hey, watch out for, this is not her name, hey, watch out for Keisha, you know, Keisha's kind of mean, and I Okay, well, you know, Keisha's a customer, so you come to the meeting and there comes Keisha. Keisha sits down. Keisha's an introvert, right? And so, you know, we have all the smart people and they're doing the stuff and they're doing the stuff. And so she's sitting there, just like you said, just kind of taking that all in. Right? And so she raises her hand and she goes, hey, this is I don't think that's going to work for these reasons. And I go, oh, no, no, no, no, it'll be fine. And so I said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I think she has a point. Right? And then she goes and she turns and looks at me. And so I said, yeah, so she should go on. So she explains herself a little bit more. And then over time, she, she, you know, she explains, hey, this is why this is going to work here. But here is actually what will work and it ended up saving the project millions of dollars. And so we became, you know, friends, you know, good co workers and eventually friends. And she goes, and so just, you know turning this completely around. And she said, Eric, you know, when I first met you. I thought you were going to be one of these, I'm not going to repeat it, but she said, hey, I thought you were one of these people that were going to be unpleasant to work with. But I still remember that meeting where you let me speak up and I said, there was no way I could let that happen. And so to my black women that are introverts. You know, the way to subvert that is, well, two things. Number one, the way to subvert that, that's their problem, right? So you don't owe people the pleasure of making them feel good, right? We're all here. We're all supposed to be professional. It's a big world out there. You know, we have to get used to working with people that don't look like us, right? I'm used to it. You're used to it. And dominant society has to get used to that, right? So that's just their problem. The second piece is and I tell this to to a lot of people that I mentor, you know, have everything together and don't be afraid to speak up, even if you're wrong. It's okay to be wrong. So shout, so shout out to my black female introverts. Don't do it. On the room, on the space, speak up. Yes. Definitely advice that I would echo having been an instructor in a classroom, it's a. Say, I don't know, right? And to not have the pressure that gets put on you for having to represent an entire culture. you could say like, Hey, I don't know, but let me ask you some additional questions so that I can get to know what your needs are and give you the best answer for your unique situation, based on the information that you've given me. So I love that. I love that. And Along the same trail, when we talk about glass ceilings and we talk about rooms that Black women, Black people may not be able to enter, some doors have been open for Black men to enter. Do you have examples of a time when you've said her name behind closed doors in a room that matters, in rooms where Black women can't get entry into. Being an advocate, being an ally in those closed door sessions. I've had the pleasure and the honor of having black female contemporaries, black female customers. I've worked for black female executives. And the thought that there are rooms that they don't have access to, right? And so I'll even, I'll mention my shout out to Tony Towns Whitley, who's the CEO of SEIC, used to run regular industries in Microsoft, probably the most phenomenal leader I've ever had the pleasure of working for. And I can't imagine a room that she couldn't get into. Without taking a proverbial flamethrower to that room and knocking it down and then just owning that space. So I say all that to say, if there are rooms that Black females can't get into, you know, I'm more of a man of action. Let's figure out what needs to be done. Right? Because that, that just hasn't been my experience. Okay. Okay. So we're going to hold you to it. Please, no, please do. Alright, is workplace diversity a concern for you? So you work in tech, I work in tech, I've seen the lack of diversity, I felt the lack of diversity. What has your experience been with diversity in the workplace? I'm going to say the phrase, never enough. Okay, it's there. I've got a great background working with a lot of people from a bunch of different backgrounds. I always want to see more of us in, in tech, in sales, in executive roles, in everywhere. Right? And so, when I talk, when I mentor, young kids, right? And they say, hey, hey, Mr. Brown, how did you get there, or what can we do? And I said, hey, come on in. There is enough work for all of us to do. There's enough work for all of us to create, because we have a why and we have a reason. So, I'm a big fan of diversity. I want more of it. You can never have enough. Yes, I actually love being in diverse spaces. I am as pro Black as they come, but I will tell you that some of my white friends, my Asian friends, my Hispanic friends, they are the foundations and some of the bedrocks of who I am as a person and the experiences that I, I've had throughout my life. And when you're in spaces that lack diversity, you're just missing out. all right, so earlier you mentioned the Wayne Gretzky quote about if you were playing hockey, you want to be where the puck is going, not where the puck currently is. It's one of my favorite quotes, I use it quite often, and so, in terms of technology, what technologies are you on the lookout for? What technology should young people be following if they want to be where the puck is going? Ah, that's a great question. So I would say this, without just, giving you the, you know, the general, hey, AI , right? So think of it more like assistive technologies. Okay. So I brought up the Waze example earlier. Okay. So that ability to take real time information Put it into an easily digestible format, and then disseminate that out to the general public, or, to a group of people in order to easily consume it in a way that makes sense to them. That's always going to be a skill set that's that's going to be in demand. Right? So, if you look at the amount of data that we're all just generating. On an hour by hour basis, right? I've got my phone right here and that ability to take that data and arrange that in a way to make an accurate prediction of what I'm going to buy next, what I'm going to buy for my kids, what I'm going to buy for, you know, my nieces, my wife , you name it. Right? So that type of technology to make sense of that, yeah. Is always going to be in demand. And then thing two is going to be, how do you protect that data? Right? So that is very, very valuable data. That a lot of people with negative intent want access to. And so your ability to protect that information is always going to be in demand too. All right, all right. So it sounds like AI, data science, and cyber security okay, so one last question, probably the toughest question that you'll get all day. Given your vast array of experience and technological knowledge, if the zombie apocalypse were to happen right now, what would your approach be to surviving? Oh, I'm already out in the hinterland. So, number one, it's going to take a long time for the zombies to get to me. I'm off of you know, I'm off of several country roads. So, I am, I'm already, so I am geographically separate. So, I'll see them coming from a mile away. What tech would I want? I'm going to, so, you know, a combination of two things. One, I'm going to have a series of booby traps, you know, physical security. Okay. Deterrence. Okay, I'm going to have some sensors out there that will alert me to who's coming out there and then I'm also going to have some things to protect me and my family. Okay, you're going to be eaten. You're going to have to put a hat or some powder on your head because it's just shining. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, I'm going to have a hat on because, yeah, they'll see me coming from a mile away. Well, Eric, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today. Thank you for imparting your valuable knowledge to our young people and especially to my friends and I who tend to lean introvert. And thank you for showing up when Northstar made the call. No, I appreciate the invite. This is a great conversation. I'm happy to help out. So thank you so much. All right. And on that note, thank you to our listeners. I want to thank the sponsors of the 2023 Homecoming Conference event, which was held on Howard University's campus. Thank you National Geographic Society, National Academy's Gulf Research Program, Mapping Black California, Hope and Heal, and Spatial GIS. We also want to give a special thanks to our guests. Thank you. for trusting us with your stories. Shannon, Sandra, Kevin, Margo, Frank, Jen, Dr. Louberts, Karee, Dr. Graham, Gloria, Michael, Eric, Sky, Nick, Dr. Yoboa Kwakun, Veronique, and Dawn. We also want to thank Howard University for allowing us to present in the iconic browsing room and to the Northstar team. Thank you. Shakonda, Raisha, Clinton. Erica, Yolanda, and our volunteers and student ambassadors. Thank you also to KMG. Audio is produced by Cherry Blossom Production, and I'm Aisha, your host and the executive producer of the inaugural season of the North Star Gaze podcast, which is based on the 2023 Homecoming conference event.