Be Black. Be Bold. Be Innovative. Show the World Equitable Geo. We're coming together as a collective to celebrate people of African descent, the diaspora, and talking about geospatial equity and justice. You're listening to The North Star Gaze, a podcast with intimate stories from geoluminaries. Well, welcome. Welcome, Nick. I'm here with Nick Okafor and Nick is the founder of Trouble Co. And so, first, Introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about how you arrived at a career in GIS and then tell us about Truble Co. Amazing. So glad to be here with you all. My name is Nico Cafor, I use he/him pronouns, and I'm the founder of Trouble Co. Truble & Co. is a tech justice nonprofit that champions those that are proximate to inequity to innovate for social change. Core to this is the belief that those who are proximate to inequity should be the drivers of liberatory innovation. We're really excited about the integration of this word, liberatory innovation, thinking about all the things of equity, responsibility, and justice, and how do you merge those values, that positive affection for the future, with some digital tools of tomorrow? How do you Combine that with data design and technology to actually build that feature that you desire. I got to this point. My background is actually in mechanical engineering and international development. So, for a while, I've been working at this intersection of the technical and the social. Really curious, of course, at first, of how do you build stuff to help people? But as I started to dive into this work, I started to uncover, there's actually a lot of work where these tools can create potential harm. And so a lot of the work in Tropen Co is extrapolating that. How can we create stuff for good? How can we avoid potential harm? And how do we actually disrupt some of those systems to prevent these things from happening? Oh, this is going to be a good conversation because you have mentioned so many different terms. But first, I remember John Lewis, I think it was that said, get into good trouble. So can you tell us a little bit about your Truble Makers? Yes. And so Truble & Co is very much inspired by that. Two different quotes. One, definitely John Lewis telling us to get into some good trouble. But then also Bayard Rustin, an incredible civil rights activist, who said that we need need in every community a group of angelic troublemakers. The name came about because as someone who has been regarded as trouble by simply existing in spaces that maybe I shouldn't be, being a Black, queer, technical professional existing in its full light and authenticity in these spaces there's a connotation that by advocating for the communities that I come from We are causing trouble. We're going against the norm. So Trouble Co. leans into that, leans into this idea of good trouble and angelic troublemakers and thinking about how can we tap into youth who are often told some of these stories or cast in that narrative and see their own light that they already have and think through in order to achieve these visions that you see forward in order to create liberation. You might have to cause some trouble and that's okay. We want to disrupt. We want to change from the status quo and we want to promote equity and are inspired by different activists and leaders who have caused trouble in order to secure the rights that we enjoy today. And so we, we act on top of their shoulders. No, I love that. I think I've watched a Bayard Rustin story three times because there's just so much information to take away. And my biggest takeaway is that if we're not those disrupting systems that impact all of us, Regardless, then what are we doing, we're standing in the way. So I do want to get into some of these terms that you have identified. But first, what drew you to this year's homecoming event? Yeah, I was drawn to this year's Homecoming event due to the work that we're doing in creating Black and Brown troublemakers across the nation that are equipped with GIS. And so the idea that we need to tap into the strength of the African diaspora, as well as the geospatial power that exists in these tools, has really been a motivating factor. And so within the Homecoming event, we had an opportunity to spotlight our very own young troublemakers. And so we jumped at that chance. We want to be a platform for all of their future endeavors and success and really amplify their stories and potential. And so we saw this as an opportunity. To help broadcast their work, and so it was great to be able to be on the homecoming virtual stage and then share that with a couple of our troublemakers and share their own visions for liberation at scale. Well, I definitely appreciate it. It was an enjoyable session. So thank you. Okay. All right. So let's talk about some terms. So I realized that as we are doing diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging work, we are so shoulders deep in these different terms and kind of shifting the narrative and unlearning ourselves. But as we start talking to people and navigating, Some people are not as familiar with these terms, so you talk about liberatory innovation you've spoken about disruptors, mitigating harm. Can we, like, break those three terms down just a little bit so people can take away just additional knowledge along with our stories? Absolutely, and so liberatory innovation is a pretty new term. I haven't really seen folks utilize this term and we created this because we saw a gap in the ways they were talking about other ways of creative problem solving for good. There's social innovation, there's responsible tech, there's ethical AI in encapsulating this work. But we see liberatory innovation doing two things. One, it's really looking at the wide range of what does liberation work typically model. We actually adopt what some of the work from abolition and abolitionist strategy. Mariam Kaba defines abolition as a practical organizing strategy, a political vision. And an analysis of past drivers of inequity and oppression. And so in doing this work of liberation, it requires doing three things in tandem. You're looking at the past, you're documenting that, you're telling that narrative, you're uplifting those stories, and acknowledging that harm was done. At the same time you're ideating on this future, you're thinking through like, what does liberation actually mean to me? What is possible within our communities, even if it doesn't exist yet? And then you're doing work in the present to change the course and to heal folks and to prevent these systemic issues from happening again. And so when we look at liberatory work, we're solving for equity. We're creating opportunity, we're creating positivity, positive change. Well, at the same time, we're encapsulating some of the work that we've seen rise in responsible tech, where we avoid harm. We know that tech, this world of data and digital work can actually have, has a lot of power on our communities in terms of what data is taken from us or extracted, how our algorithms actually dictating how we navigate through the digital and physical world. And so a lot of the work of responsibility and ethics is actually centered around avoiding harm, thinking through what shouldn't AI do? What should the robots not be capable of? And then there's a third point around systemic change that's really important to center that neither social innovation or responsible tech really gets at around really thinking through those root causes of oppression, acknowledging the difference dynamics within our power structures as systemic, things that go beyond individual actors with their institutions at play that are maintaining these systems and we want We want to have our own role in thinking through acknowledging that, but then to an extent disrupting that, changing the status quo, and thinking what could this look like in the future so you don't, so the opportunities for access stay open, and the opportunities for harm stay closed. And then when we look at the innovation work, this is really thinking through some of those digital tools around data design and technology that we see at the forefront of creating the tomorrow that we want. Okay, so let's go a little bit deeper into the data because we do talk a lot about data. I was part of a conversation on the international stage where we're talking about the danger of data is not always what we think. It's more insidious than that. And when it comes to communities of color protecting that data, who owns the data, access to the data. Can you go a little bit deeper into to that, how to, how to use geo as a tool of liberation and how to responsibly use geo? Yeah, no, absolutely. I think there's a couple different ways that we see that work coming out through Trouble Tell. One is by the sheer fact of documenting. Acknowledging that this has happened, this has been quantified, these people existed, this harm happened, and this is the state of the world. So many of the issues that we care about, that we advocate for, have data that really cements their impact that they had on society in ways that these are stories that often aren't told or aren't told to the extent that they need to. And so even acknowledging that some of the symptoms that we see in Racial inequality today can actually be tied to redlining decisions that were made that so many decades ago that are lingering and connecting that via data saying, oh, it was in this zip code that was redlined. And now we see the same, institutional barriers to access to different services, access to education, access to wealth that are pervading. That's data. And so we encourage our youth to go dig and research and explore. What are the narratives that you think needs more light? Whether it be I I lived in a food desert, and actually I want to document the fact that the data shows that we don't have access to healthy greens within X amount of miles of these homes. That's data that needs to be documented and shared, or it could be qualitative thinking through, maybe folks are experiencing gentrification but may face backlash saying, oh, you're exaggerating, that's not the case. Let's see what the data says. And you actually see, and this is insights that our students have created about their own communities where they saw, actually, if you look quantitatively, these neighborhoods that used to be black and brown are now white, and we actually see an increase in home ownership and home value. Value as the population demographic shift, but then also qualitatively thinking through what used to be a panaderia is now a Starbucks. And so how do you use these different forms of data to tell these stories that are really critical for liberation work, that really helps quantify and document the work that we know true to be in our hearts. Right. So thank you for that because that was going to be my follow up question. You talked about how GIS is core and central to what Truble & Co does and part of your mission, and I wanted to break down a little bit further how you've seen GIS be used for good and how GIS can be used for evil, right? In some cases. So when we talk about, , food deserts, food apartheid, what happens when the demographic of neighborhood changes? How many? Supermarkets pop up, how many, fresh juice places pop up, so when we talk about that shift, what comes with that shift? But also what leaves with the flight? So do you have examples of interesting studies that your students have done and what they've uncovered in their own neighborhoods? Absolutely. And so GIS geospatial data is a tool like any other, and it can be utilized for good, for harm, for any agenda that someone has for it. I learned GIS through a lens of social impact and business impact. I was working for Planned Parenthood thinking through their market strategy, and so I was already familiar with Theta, but had recently learned GIS as this accessible way to interpret, analyze, and engage with other folks on a quantitative lens. I felt it really powerful. To weigh both business decisions, right? What's going to be important for a new clinic to open and how do we assess that kind of viability, but then also incorporating social metrics in terms of, well, where should we open up a new clinic? Yes, it has to be financially viable, but also where the social implications and different determinants of health that are going to influence how we make those decisions. And so, for me, that was my introduction to GIS, and I saw, oh, if I can learn this in a couple weeks, why can't some high schoolers? And so that, that was the birth of our program, Mapping Justice. But ultimately, it's a tool that can be used in any which way, take Take fast food and unhealthy eating geospatial data and market analytics more broadly is definitely utilized in the private sector for their own gain. And a lot of fast food locations and companies will say, well, to determine where we should be, We need to look at the demographics of that zip code, of that block. And for some companies, there are factors that tell them, yes, we shouldn't be there. This is going to be inviting. And there are some companies that look at those same factors and say, no, we shouldn't be there. It won't be inviting. So they've already determined what are the different demographics that they want to be in for fast food locations that are often selling healthy food. Turns out. Lower class Black and Brown neighborhoods are a win for them, so they're over concentrated in these areas. Vice versa, you'll have healthier options. Take it a Whole Foods, even maybe a Trader Joe's, where you look to see, well, where are those located? And it turns out, even for an option that may be financially accessible, like a Trader Joe's. You still don't have the locations mapped in areas that could really benefit from it. And so you see that kind of systemic issue happening at large, where they're using geospatial data to advance their own agenda, right? They're thinking, how do I make the most money? How do we scale companies? And so some I've seen, this is my customer and that's not my customer, but there are larger societal implications of that when there are institutions deciding. Great, we're not going to, instead of a treat at Joe's, you get a McDonald's, and that creates a lot of compounding effects after that. So funny you bring that up, because I find that the more and the longer I do this work, it is hard to unlearn or unhear what you know and what you see is happening, right? And so, you know that there are such Such things as the black tax. So when we go back to redlining, if you desire to be in a diverse neighborhood that has honored the communities that have come, come and gone, right? And I live in a neighborhood that has multi generational families. You know that you are paying a premium in things like homeowner's insurance and, you know, just for certain basic amenities and, and things like that. And, It's hard, it's a trade off that you make because you understand the systemic forces and then you ask yourself, so this is going to be one of my questions, how do we make doing this work personal? Because when we talk about dismantling systems and recognizing the role or the extent that which we could play a part in either upholding or dismantling these systems How do you make it personal for the young people who come through your program and then even some of the older people that you impact? Absolutely. Well, first, the personal is political, and that is core to some of our work. Before day one in our Mapping Justice, we tasked them with a, with an assignment called, What's Your Big Idea? And they're immediately reflecting on a wicked problem that affects them, affects their community, affects communities like them, etc. And they're thinking through, like, what's something that I really want to solve? What keeps me up at night? And for a lot of them, they're reflecting on their own experiences, stories that they see around their neighborhood, stories that they hear in literature from their parents and family and broader community. This doesn't get enough light of day. And I really want to take this opportunity to figure out, I think there could be a different way. I think we, as a society, can do better and should do better. And they start to think through, well, what might that be? And so, for some, They need to look at issues within urban development. Some are looking at, well, I identify as queer, and I see an access to opportunity there. Some have a special tie to education, and they feel that maybe they've been granted a special opportunity in education, or maybe they weren't granted a certain opportunity in education, and they see that there are factors at play, and they want to uncover that. And so they do this work within GIS to start to do that research to figure out how am I starting to question the world around me and having that sense of critical civic inquiry where they are actually pushed to not just take society as its This is the way it has to be, you know. Therefore, it is this way, therefore it must be this way, but we're actually hoping to empower them to say, you have the power to change the world around you, and we want to be a part of that. We want to accelerate that that fire in you, because that's how innovation starts. When you start to realize that society isn't static, that the systems aren't fixed, that we do have agency to change the tech we use, the way we interact. The devices in our hands you get a sense of this creative problem solving power that we are channeling into our GIS instruction. And so they continue, they learn GIS through a format to where they're solving these localized community problems. through their assignments, that all the while thinking about this broader problem that they're now paired up with one or two other people to start to think through. And through the nature of this eight week course, they then develop a story map that can articulate the past inequality, but then are creating a dashboard or another application. towards a pseudo client that could potentially alter that future that helps them think through what liberation might look like. And so maybe it is the local mayor or a non profit or a really big funder that can just throw a lot of money at the solution. They're thinking about how GIS might be a tool to direct certain interventions to create that liberatory feature. I'm smiling because when you talk about the different organizations, the different political structures that can be engaged as your young folks are doing their work. How do you hold? All of these organizations, all of these other entities accountable, so it's not just like finding someone to throw money at the problem, but it is also holding those organizations, those businesses accountable too. So how do you leverage Truble & Co to do that? When I think of the work that NorthStar does, and when we think about dismantling systems, in my mind white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism kind of are the trifecta, right? And so we cannot address one. Without addressing the three, the trifecta. And when I think over movements. in just this country alone, they could go a lot further, but they don't because we gotta have these uncomfortable conversations to hold entities accountable. And so we're pushing up against, Patriarchy, Capitalism, White Supremacy, right? So then that means that we're going to have to say no to some organizations that don't recognize basic human rights. You mentioned, it's a, it's a fair question. It's a hard question and I don't have a clean answer to other than we need to listen more. And there's a, there's a role of critical consciousness around how do you start to listen to people . Identify and understand various social inequities and how they relate to each other with the motivation to tackle it that needs to be built, which is also tied to empathy. But there isn't, we don't have a great track record of doing that. I had mentioned. Part of our name being inspired by Bayard Rustin, who's a prime example of that a Black gay civil rights activist who was told by other leaders in the field that actually the, the, the gay thing's a distraction. We need to focus. We need to stay in this lane. This is what we need to achieve. And I think a lot of people While doing liberation work are often misguided and told that, that we need to focus on the nearest hanging fruit, or this is going to muddy and cloud the conversation. Black women have been told for ages that in doing fighting for, for, for Black rights, right, their, their woman ness gets sidelined and vice versa. We were fighting for a women's right to vote. Black women were excluded from that conversation because they said, actually, let's clarify, white women's right to vote, you know, so there are all of these levels. Of intersectionality, where there's a misplaced priority on, you may still be within a minority, but then you have other privileged identities that are superseding the direction and we don't have a really clear example of how do we take into account the intersectionality. intersectional nature of liberation knowing that it will also take sacrifice, right? Everyone has a multitude of privileges and oppressions that they experience. They just take different roles in our lives. But in order to create liberation work, you do have to use those privileges and sometimes you're sacrificing certain powers or resources that you have in order to reach this greater goal of collective liberation. How do we get folks to do that? Ooh, if I had that answer, we'd have a problem solved. But I think it starts by acknowledging that we have those in us and that it's gonna take some hard work. And then thinking about a North Star, abolition helps us do in thinking through, we have a goal. How can we iterate, learn from this, but then not make decisions that will impede on that overall North Star? How do we not invest in systems that may give us a short run, you know, like, short term gain, but if long term, it's going to be, provide a barrier to to the future and the vision that we're hoping to create, then we can't make that sacrifice right now. We can't. Throw it all away for this short term gain if it's gonna actually bring us further away from the vision that we're hoping to create. So a lot of it is thinking through, well, what is that North Star and what's necessary and how can we try out, try different things out, but then also be willing to step back and learn and admit when we're wrong. So along that same line in American society, there is this intergenerational type of hierarchy that sometimes comes into play. And one of the things that I appreciate about , Truble & Co and that your troublemakers are young people and young people have always been central to movements of the diaspora. Can you talk about what you see as your role to elevating. These young people, these young minds, and Citizen Insights, right? Because there is A very, very deep value. I'm a parent. And when I look at my kids, I know that there will be a time where I won't be here and they're going to have to carry forth this vision, right? Whatever mess we make as adults right now, whatever visions we set, whatever innovation is here and will come in the future. They're going to be the ones who live with the impact. They're going to be the ones to see it through. So what do you see as your role in elevating these young people? Yeah, I think in order to do that you need humility. The goal of Truble and Co. isn't to , swoop into any community and dictate what gets done. Our goal is to listen to youth and think through, well, what futures do you want to create? Great. Here are some tools that will help you in your vision. Here are some processes that will help refine that path. But we want to amplify the things that you already know to your heart. And so we're admitting that. Young folks grew up in these communities, know these communities at the back of the hand, and that we're, it's this challenge with, like, innovation work, where we often want young people to be leaders, but we rarely Completely. Sacrifice the opportunity for them to rise up to that occasion and actually give them power to dictate that. And so, to that regard, we're underestimating them. You're underestimating their potential for the transformative change that we simultaneously expect them to be able to achieve and to fix all these problems that have been dropped in their plate. And so we want to provide an opportunity to dive into that. What's a playground for innovation and community problem solving? in a safe space to where you can learn, push each other, gain some skills, build community, and then go out into the world better aware and better equipped, with achieving that form of transformative change. And some of that is around societal awareness, understanding how the world works, and being able to question the world around you, while also having the technical skills to build, to analyze, to create, to to communicate. Those things paired is where I see the transformative change happen. And so we're really excited to tap into use power and having them dictate, well, like you said, this is, this is going to be their society. And so start designing and start getting into it now. And so by the time you're in that position of like real authority and power, you can really rise into it. Yes. Yes. It's, it's almost like some folks don't know how to hand the baton. You know, it's like, how do we, what do you do when you, you run out of energy and then you didn't create that next hand? You didn't cultivate, you didn't nurture it. You didn't critical thinking. Oh my gosh. It's so important. When you spoke, you talked about wanting to envision a future where we triple or quadruple the number of Black and Brown GEO professionals that we see. What's your approach to helping advance that work? Yeah, I mean, it starts off with just teaching them what GIS is. I didn't know what GIS was until towards the end of college, even after college. And so, in order to do that, if you're thinking through the ways that the geospatial approach is can serve a multitude of agendas. I think one, there is a gap in the technical skills that Black and Brown youth are exposed to, are told that we can have, that we're capable of. And so first off, we want to open that lid and say, here are all the things that you can do and we see you doing it and we're going to push you into this and see how and, and, and, and, and really nurture that ability. But then part of it is also making it relevant. And so we die. We do that by asking them again. What do you care about? Okay, you you care about education. You care about women's rights. You care about class reform. Here are ways that GIS and some of these geospatial tools can advance these issues that you really think are important. And you really build that connection to the geographic approach. That's really critical. And whether or not they become formal GIS analysts isn't actually my intention. My intention is that they are bringing this idea and this skill set into the variety of paths that they pursue. I'm thinking about a student who wanted to be a doctor, and his dad was a doctor, and his mom was a doctor. He's like, yeah, I'm going into medicine. This is, this is beyond me. But then after doing our program, he started to see, okay, well, I still want to be a doctor. But I also see the value of understanding geographical data. To determine, Oh, here's where different determinants and different diseases or outcomes are more prevalent or not. And so he was exposed to this world of public health that he wants to bring into his medicine and determining where. Certain practices should be, and where do you design interventions? And so that's our ultimate goal is that students are equipped with both the societal awareness and this technical skill set in geospatial analysis, truly direct whatever, whatever liberatory features that they see fit for their own communities. I love that. Resilience or resistance? Nick, or both? Resilience or resistance? I mean, you need both. You can't You likely can't do both at the same time, but this is making me think of There are different roles we play within the liberation movement. And then also these are different forms of energy expenditure that we have to alternate between. When I think about resilience, there is a sense of like protection. There is a sense of safeguarding. There's a sense of healing tied to that. And when I think about resistance, there is a sense of action, of I'm gonna jump into the fight. I'm going to, put myself on a limb, be it my, my name, my body, my actions, etc. And I think you need both. I think we need to build communities that are resilient because there's going to be a lot thrown at us, and we need to think through the ways that we can heal ourselves and have fortitude as a community. But at the same time, there are moments where we need to dive into resistance and, and cause that good trouble that that's so needed. But you can't cause trouble if, if your body can't keep up. So resilience is definitely key. Absolutely. Okay, and last question. If the zombie apocalypse were to happen right now, what would be your approach to surviving the zombie apocalypse? Oof, my first approach is finding a friend that knows, that understands, my first approach is assembling my team. Needs someone who knows how to forage for food, how to hunt. Find another friend that understands the whole, like, camping nature, like, this plant's gonna kill you, et cetera, et cetera. And then a builder, and then a fighter. I think that's the team. We have, like, food, we have, like, nature, you have, like, who's gonna be, you know, my bodyguard. And so that, that's my approach is I'm designing the perfect team for my survival. I love it. I love it. Who has what skill sets? Like, so I'm trying to build my, my little, so I do gardening. So I'm like, yes. We're gardening, we're seed saving, we're dehydrating, we're canning, right? And then I've got a little one that's in the scouts. And so you're responsible for fire. Right. And so I just, it's one of my favorite questions and I use it a lot. Well, Nick, thank you so much for this conversation. I deeply appreciate it. It speaks to so many different parts of who I am and what I envision being able to contribute to the future. So thank you for taking this time with me. Of course. Thank you for hosting me and it's always fun to, to talk Truble yes. Yes. Now let's go make some good Truble. Amazing. All right. And on that note, thank you to our listeners. I want to thank the sponsors of the 2023 Homecoming Conference event, which was held on Howard University's campus. Thank you National Geographic Society, National Academy's Gulf Research Program, Mapping Black California, Hope and Heal, and Spatial GIS. We also want to give a special thanks to our guests. Thank you. for trusting us with your stories. Shannon, Sandra, Kevin, Margo, Frank, Jen, Dr. Louberts, Karee, Dr. Graham, Gloria, Michael, Eric, Sky, Nick, Dr. Yoboa Kwakun, Veronique, and Dawn. We also want to thank Howard University for allowing us to present in the iconic browsing room and to the Northstar team. Thank you. Shakonda, Raisha, Clinton. Erica, Yolanda, and our volunteers and student ambassadors. Thank you also to KMG. Audio is produced by Cherry Blossom Production, and I'm Aisha, your host and the executive producer of the inaugural season of the North Star Gaze podcast, which is based on the 2023 Homecoming conference event. Thanks for listening to the North Star Gaze, intimate stories from geoluminaries. If you're inspired to advance racial justice in geofields, please share this podcast with other listeners in your community. The intro and outro are produced by Organized Sound Productions with original music created by Kid Bodega. The North Star Gaze is produced in large part by donations and sponsorship. To learn more about North Star GIS, Check us out at north star of gis.org and on Facebook or Instagram at GIS North Star. If you'd like to support this podcast and North Star of gis, consider donating at North star of gis.org/donate or to sponsor this podcast, email podcast at north star of gis.org. You've been listening to the North Star Gaze.