Be Black, Be Bold, Be Innovative, Show the World Equitable Geo. We're coming together as a collective to celebrate people of African descent, the diaspora, and talking about geospatial equity and justice. You're listening to The North Star Gaze, a podcast with intimate stories from geoluminaries. It really, it is an honor. It is an honor to have you as part of the 2024 Homecoming event for North Star GIS. I am so excited about your work. I'm so excited when I listen to your podcast. Every episode makes me want to ask the question. About 1, 500 more questions. And even when you were speaking today, there were so many questions that I wanted to ask. But tell me what would you say to people who have never dived to get them interested in that experience of becoming a diver? Hmm, I think that diving is one of the most Meditative things that you can do, because it's, it's all about breath. You have to be very conscious of your breath. So you're paying attention to it going out, coming in. and you're in silence. And you also have to be aware under the water, because, you know, you don't want to die. So you have to really be paying attention. You can't Spend your time thinking about all the other things in life. Like there's a way that it, it calls you to be present. I think that's really beautiful. I think a lot of people are looking for ways and spaces to be present. Um, I have to tell you, until I heard you speak, I was the most impressed. Disinterested person in diving. And when I heard you say that underwater you could finally breathe, that was an astonishing thing for me to hear. Especially as a person of African descent that thing about breathing, about breath is crucial. It's critical. And so often we feel. Oh, my God, I can't breathe. So to hear you say I could finally breathe was a very powerful thing for me to hear and to think about. So, yeah, so, yeah, your relationship with Doc Jones. Tell me a bit about that, can you? Yeah, so Doc was one of the instructors for me when I was getting certified. Dr. Albert Jose Jones is like a legend in black diving. I mean, I still can't believe that I ended up smack dab in the center of all of this. Doc Jones is credited as being the godfather of black scuba diving in the United States. Um, he's the one who created the Underwater Adventure Seekers Club in the 1950s. he started diving when he was a part of the army. And, what he found was that people didn't want to dive with him because he's a black man. So he was like, how do I solve for this? So he created a space where people who were black could buddy up with each other and actually be able to dive. and then that led as he saw more and more people wanting to be a part of this and to get interested, he co founded it. So there's another co founder with it. The National Association of Black Scuba Divers, which is going strong. It's like over 3, 000 divers Diving all over the world. It's like what? Yeah, I went on one dive trip to Mexico and It's incredible when you've got all these black divers that end up diving Taking over a resort if people are like, wait, what? Cause they're not used to seeing us. Yeah. In that space and in that way. But none of this, like, I wouldn't be here. Diving with a Purpose wouldn't be here if not for Dr. Albert Jose Jones. Well, we're going to make sure that we acknowledge him as One of the leading lights in this area. So, I know you don't think of yourself as a geographer, but you are a geographer. Am I? Am I really? Well, yeah. Yeah, really? Okay. Yeah, yeah, I think you can add that to the long list of accomplishments that you have. I mean, first of all, you have moved through geographic spaces. Yeah, I think that's true. You did this amazing thing. You said, I'm quitting this job. I'm going to learn how to do this thing. I'm going to immerse myself in this. So I know you went to East Asia and Southeast Asia to immerse yourself in diving experience, but that's also a geographic experience, right? So you are leaving one physical place. You're going to another physical place. And when I hear your voice, you are You're constantly describing the terrain in which you are interacting, right? So that's, that's what I hear. That's what we see in geography? Well yeah, you are studying spaces, so yeah, yeah. Now you don't necessarily use the technology of GIS, but the technology is enabling. It's not the thing. The thing is the places that we can go. But as you learn about this technology, what do you think that you need from us as people who are involved in GIS technology to help make your work easier? What can we do to support the work that you are doing? It's a great question. Well, there are a couple of things. As I was trying to say in the talk today, there's a way that we don't look at ourselves globally as a connected world. And there's a way that the transatlantic slave trade, it illustrates that, like it is the thing that we might use to really show how connected we are as a world. When I think about the underwater museum, I think about the stories that we want to tell, I think that those have to be centered inside of space and geography so that we can really see, what the connection is. I think there's such a way that the narrative And maybe this is just a regional thing, like the world is about us. It's not really about anything else, but we're part of this interrelated world. And to understand the world, we've got to see how we relate to each other. So I keep imagining, Maps, like literal maps and stories on these maps so that we can see what's been exchanged, what's been, given, how we're connected. And I think it changes the narrative of the trade and its impact on us. So what I want to see happen with this project is a new narrative. That helps us understand who we are and how we're related to each other much better. You know, when you started speaking about those connections and you can see I started drawing arrows, right? You know that we are All connected. Sometimes I don't want to be connected to everybody that I'm connected to, to be quite honest, right? As African Americans or as a person of African descent, I definitely look to my African heritage. I know I'm not 100 percent African, but I have not really wanted to explore those other connections, so I've got to think about that, too. You were speaking and I was like, okay, so who were these people who were captured beyond the use of their bodies, that really made me think, well, yes, they were taken for their labor, but they were something else before their bodies were put into this. application, right? And, I do want to honor that. I think that as part of the healing, giving respect, you spoke about the respect and the need for healing. So I just wanted to take a moment and get more of your words about how we can honor and respect and help heal ourselves by giving, our due to those who came before us. this maybe doesn't answer that question, but it's also coming to mind to say this as well. There's also such a way that we think of even the Black story as one story. It's not one story. It's a very complex, complicated, nuanced story with different, perspectives around the world. So even Having us as African Americans, and I don't even know what an African experience is, because Benin is a very different place from Nigeria, which is a very different place from Mozambique, which is a very different place from Senegal, but we, consolidate all of these into one thought. But the idea of complexifying this idea of blackness, is really exciting to me. And I think that that gives us another way of honoring our ancestors in the past. it's looking for the commonalities, but it's also respecting that there are differences. You know, we got connected through this idea of skin color, but it is not a real thing. It's nothing. And yet we are defined by it. So how do we undefine by it? And then choose to define by it if we want to. There's an opportunity here that you were talking about. And you spoke about that today when you spoke about your mother's pastor, guiding you to ask permission to tell their stories. And we have to ask their permission, but we also can ask permission of each other about where we go from here. I love that you're a sci fi girl. I think I've read every word Octavia Butler ever, ever thought about writing. I'm just like, Oh my God, come back. So tell me Who are you reading and who have you been reading in the sci fi world? Okay. Now I feel like I have to open up my Kindle. Because there have been some out. Standing black writers that I am tracking. And of course now that I'm reading on my Kindle , like, you know, it's different than when you read a Yes, yes. A physical, physical book and you really like, remember the things you can now I'm like, what were their names? There's an author named Justine, I can't think of her last name. Oh, is it Ireland? I think it's Ireland. I haven't read her. Oh my gosh, she has this young adult, Justina Ireland, I see her now. Dread Nation. Okay. It's a reimagining of, it's reconstruction time. But she imagines that it's also the world that's been overcome by zombies. Oh boy. And that's black. Girls, in particular, are like the zombie fighters, so they are And then there's PJ, what is his name? It's like PJ Clark? PJ, oh it's a, I think it's a Nigerian name. It's like Djerli. He's doing some really beautiful work, set in New Orleans. PJ Tajir. But there are some really interesting Oh, Jemisin is one that I've read. N. K. Jemisin. Oh, yeah. You gotta love N. K. Yeah. Her stuff is so complex. It is. Which is beautiful. It is. It is. She's imagining whole new worlds. Yes. Yes. And I think that's part of what your work is also, imagining, reimagining who we are, where we are in this place. Yes. And also centering the ocean inside of that. Like, the ocean as future, as a future place for black folks. And we belong in the ocean. We've got such an incredible aquatic history that's been forgotten and it's been distorted. But we designed sort of the first canoe. We are the designers of the freestyle swim stroke. Like, it's incredible. But we, it seems like we don't have a relationship to the ocean. Well, part of it is that we've been told we don't, and then we make that narrative our story, black folks are afraid they won't float or, crazy things that we have been told about us and our relationship to water. So we can untell or tell some stories. One of the questions I had in mind to ask you, which I think is funny now, was, Which superpower do you think could best leverage GIS? But you already have some superpowers. I mean, like, you're flying while you're underwater. That's, I mean, I heard you, you talked about it, Dr. Jones talked about it, that sensation of flying while you're underwater. Like, I always wanted to be able to fly. That's like, huh, maybe that's how I'm going to get to fly. Maybe it's not. But tell me which superpower do you want? And how is geography and GIS going to, help that superpower? I like the idea of being able to instantly transport somewhere. Tele transportation. But to be able to transport across very far distances, or even to be able to transport in time, that could be very fascinating. And then I love, this is my storytelling side coming forth, but a superpower around being able to understand any kind of language instantaneously. Because then you think, like, if you're You're mapping these places, you're surfacing stories, you're understanding new things, but you've got to be able to communicate with the people as you're traveling. And as I traveled, I found that language was sometimes a barrier, which, I don't want it to be a barrier. And not just language with people, but language with the ocean, language with the trees, language with, the environment. Mhm. Like, that would be amazing to be able to speak the language of the wind. It has a language. So, I'm a Stevie Wonder fan. And the album that I love most is probably the least appreciated. It's Journey Through the Secret Life of Plants, it's an amazing album and it's actually a soundtrack to a documentary about plants and the way they communicate. So, there are all types of communication, but I love that as a superpower for you. You know, for those of us involved with GIS, storytelling is a What we are starting to do with maps, right? So it's not just a map of a place, but we are using things that we call story maps to help tell a story about what is significant about this place. What is significant about this data? So there's so much that we can learn from you and the arc of storytelling and art has been one of our things for This year's content, it was art, Afrofuturism and Geography. So we got absolutely the right person to kick off homecoming this year. Cause everything that you do, revolves around those three things. If you are an artist through your storytelling capacity, you are a person who's interested in Afrofuturism, just. Because of who you are and geography is part of what you do. I love it. I love it. I'm gonna add that to my thing then. Like that's, I think you should, that's something you, I absolutely think you should. Um, but again, what else can we do to support your work? Where can the young geographers of tomorrow learn how to support you or how to become better storytellers? What do they need to know? It's a good question. I think this is an ongoing conversation and it's something that we design and think about together. but I really do think that there is a need for, new narratives. And I think that these narratives. are place based. I think that it's finding a way to connect places through narrative so that we can connect to each other. So I think that there are map makers, I can imagine apps, like if we get really, tangible and start thinking about products. I think that there are maps to be created. perhaps, this is one thing that I'm working on with the education team. And I have to say, like, we've got to also fundraise for this project. But I've been talking to the education team, and one of the things that we want to do around this project is to bring together a fellowship of people from all of these different places that make up the history of the transatlantic slave trade. And we want people who are storytellers, who are scientists, who are educators, who are geographers to collaborate together. So, to really start to think about, like, how do we shape this story in a way that is not, what it's been in the past, which prioritizes one viewpoint of this history, but that really opens it up so that it is multi perspective, it is complex, it is nuanced. It is, I had a friend who said it like this, she's like, We've got to tell the story. Like jazz. Yeah. She's like, you know how jazz is, is discordant and discordant. Like, it's all of these things that we've got to tell the pain, the trauma, the joy. The beauty, it's like all of those pieces and find a way that they fit together in a way that makes a beautiful piece. So I'm imagining a fellowship of people and I would love to see some geographers be a part of that conversation to help bring a perspective of place into the conversation. So I think that's one way that we might do that. But I am really open. Like I was really serious when I was like, I hope you guys are listening for ideas of intersection because there's a way that you understand the work and that I don't. And so you might see other way. And I think just map in the ocean like we've got to connect you with Dr. Right. You guys are going to have an enormously powerful connection with one another. I am. She's amazing. You're amazing. And your work. intersects with one another. It totally does. Yeah. I know that, there's some conversation right now about, underwater, mining, like deep mining that is starting to happen all over the place and it's happening without any consideration to Our ancestral connection to the water and there might be spaces that are sacred spaces that we haven't claimed or acknowledged that could be preserved. so maybe that is an intersection. I don't know. It feels like there are just a million places that we might go. And I don't know what it looks like. I'm excited to see where you decide to go with this. Now, I can't end this talk. We're sitting here in Washington, D. C. We're on the grounds of Howard University where a week ago, so many young people were gathered hoping to celebrate., they wanted to celebrate a future that, we're on a different path than the future that was anticipated last week, Tuesday. So, everybody has like a kind of bingo card of things that might happen in the year. What was on your bingo card that happened? What was not on your bingo card,, that happened? And what do we do today, given what happened last week? Well, one thing I'll say is,, how exciting to have a black woman lead, the ticket. For a major political party and to really have a shot where communities came behind her and supported her. that is progress. That is beautiful., and I'm proud of her. I'm proud of the world for,, leaning into that and to supporting it. One day I would love to see a female president., and I know one day it will happen. So, that's one day. It will, it has to. But the thing that I'll say, that I think has gotten clear to me, over this past week and that's the thought that change doesn't happen in one place. It takes a multitude of actors from all throughout society to really bring about change. that's what democracy is. So the work that I'm doing, the work that you're doing, the work that we're all doing is Really important. Black folks, just black folks in America have not always had, friendly folks in office, but that hasn't stopped us from doing the work that has to be done on the ground. And this won't stop us. Yeah. If I could just It's all the work that we got to do and we'll just keep doing it. My challenge though, and I need to recognize is that change is not linear, right? It doesn't just happen on a straight upward trajectory. Yeah, and so thank you for reminding me and for reminding our audience that, we still have to do this work. And there'll always be obstacles, but we are survivors. That is not a, a conversation that often comes forth about black folks, there are these other narratives about who we are and who we're not. But no matter what, we are resilient. We're survivors. We keep making it through and lots of stuff gets thrown at us. That's true. And made it through powerfully. And we also, we experienced this, four years ago. Yeah. And we came out, like we made it., I thank you. I thank you for saying that. I'm still processing this and I'm still challenged. And you know what? But two things come to mind is one, we are not where we were before. Like, there, there's been backwards movement, but there's also been forward movement. And there are strong coalitions and strong work and strong people. We're doing incredible things. That's the first thought. And the second thought is that, perhaps there's a bit of a revolution in the way that progress will be made. I am taking it on myself to challenge myself, to think how do you talk about these issues in a way that that speaks really broadly. And I don't feel like I'm giving up on that in any way. I still feel encouraged around where we are now. and there's still a long way to go, but yeah, I feel like, especially in this Afro futuristic conversation that we've been having, is there a really new way of approaching and thinking about these things? That's partly why the work with Scuba divers and slave shipwrecks. It's a different lens into this. Different way to approach healing. Even thinking about the transatlantic slave trade as something that connected us. And not just as something that is so traumatic that we can't even touch it because it's so raw. I don't know, like, perhaps that's where we're going. And it's an opportunity for us to elevate. I put elevating quotes to elevate, our tactics and strategies in a way that, will resonate in a different way. Thank you for that. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more about Northstar of GIS, check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at GIS Northstar. Northstar's programming is produced in large part by donations and sponsorship. If you'd like to support the next season of the Northstar Gaze podcast, please submit your donations to northstarofgis. org slash donate. If you'd like to sponsor this podcast or the homecoming event, reach out to us at the following email address. Podcast at notestarofgis. org or notestargis. org slash sponsorhomecoming. You'll find all these links in the show notes. We want to thank our sponsors of the 2024 Homecoming event, our institutional partner ReGrid, and our sponsors New Light Technology, Afrotech, and Black at Work. We'd like to thank our keynotes, Tara Roberts, Linda Harris. Dr. Paulette Hines Brown and Vernice Miller Travis. We'd like to thank Howard University and the staff at the Interdisciplinary Building and Photography by Imagery by Chioma. We also want to thank our guests for trusting us with their stories. Tara, Linda, Paulette, Christian, Abraham, Jason, Vernice, Stella, Beye, Karen. Nikki, George, Frank, Labdi, Toussaint, Victoria, and the HBCU Environmental Justice Technical Team. And finally, thank you to the North Star team and our wonderful volunteers. We are your hosts of the Season 2 of the North Star Guest Podcast, which is based on the 2024 Homecoming Conference event. This podcast is produced by Ayesha Jenkins and audio production in collaboration with Cherry Blossom Productions, Kied Bodega, and Organized Sound. Thanks for listening to the North Star Gaze, intimate stories from geoluminaries. If you're inspired to advance racial justice in geofields, please share this podcast with other listeners in your community. The intro and outro are produced by Organized Sound Productions with original music created by Kid Bodega. The North Star Gaze is produced in large part by donations and sponsorship. To learn more about North Star GIS, Check us out at north star of gis.org and on Facebook or Instagram at GIS North Star. If you'd like to support this podcast and North Star of gis, consider donating at North star of gis.org/donate or to sponsor this podcast, email podcast at north star of gis.org. You've been listening to the North Star Gaze.