Erica: Welcome to another episode of Season three of the North Star Gaze. I am really excited today. In addition to Dr. Adrian Hollis, we've got Monte Cole on the podcast today. Monte currently serves as director of the New Climate Center for Energy and Environmental Justice, which supports advocacy for communities in regulatory forums where.

[00:01:00] Environmental justice communities have lacked capacity to more fully engage as principal at Ja Green Consulting, where she also works. Uh, she's worked at the intersections of integrated climate policy, racial equity and resilience, providing clients with holistic tools and solutions for sustainability.

MontIna has. An extraordinary background, , I want you to understand who we have the opportunity to hear from today. So,  MontIna served as the first Senior Council for Environmental Justice and Equity at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which you may know of as Burke.

There, she led the unprecedented. Unprecedented initiative to integrate environmental justice and equity into the agency's work, including creation of the agency's first equity action plan. She also led the gas pipeline policy advocacy work and helped to lead the initiative to incorporate racial equity considerations at the National Resources Defense Council.

[00:02:00] Um, before joining NRDC. C spent almost 20 years practicing energy law in corporate law firms representing a wide variety of clients and concentrating on electricity industry regulation. Uh, she's just a powerhouse, y'all. So, um, thank you so much for making time to speak with the North Star Gaze audience today.

We are really excited to have you here. A Adrian, if you don't mind, I'm gonna kick off with the first question. Sure. For what was the focus of your work in the past, and how did that lead you to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission?

Montina Cole: Sure. And thank you so much, Erica and Adrienne, uh, for inviting me to be on the show.

I just really love what you do and it's really a privilege and a pleasure for me to be here with you. Um, so most of my career actually was spent in private practice, uh, practicing energy law and corporate law firms. And there's when I began to do work, uh, representing clients before the ferc, uh, and [00:03:00] primarily with respect to the regulation of electric utilities, uh, electric regulatory law.

So that's, uh, where I really started out, out of law school and being in, in corporate law firms. But I really became interested in climate issues and then also environmental justice issues, especially as they relate to the energy sector. When I started learning about climate change, when I was pr, still practicing in private practice, I liked the folks that I worked with.

I liked the work that I had an opportunity to do, but once I started understanding what climate change meant and who was disproportionately impacted by its effects? Uh, I really started to take stock of what I was doing, uh, and knowing that I did not want to be in a situation where I was, for instance, helping a client to build a coal plant I thought, you know, I need to maybe do something different.

I wanna be part of the solution, , not part of the problem. Um, so, you know, at the same time while I was at the law firm, I was doing things on my off hours too, like starting to go to, uh, climate, uh, education sessions, getting involved with protests. Like the [00:04:00] protests of the Keystone Oil Pipeline at the White House.

Ended up getting arrested in that pipeline. Um, bill McKibben and others did the training for that. It was quite an experience, uh, but I knew that it was really important to me to do something more like that. Um, and so that's also at the same time fortunately that an opportunity presented itself for me to go and, um, and I wound up at NRDC, the natural resources, , defense council.

And that was just a wonderful experience for me . Because there I had an opportunity to help to develop the first, uh, gas pipeline advocacy project that they had had, and I got involved again with respect to ferc, which I had a lot of, you know, background representing clients before that, that reg, that regulator.

But this time I was more on the side of, of rate payers, and I had the opportunity to do that as well. Uh, at the law firm, but with respect to other issues. But here we are fighting, uh, gas pipelines that are endangering, uh, disproportionately black environmental justice communities. And so that, that was a switch.

And that was also something that I had not had a chance to [00:05:00] do at the law firm in terms of environmental justice practice. And I tell you it really opened my eyes. Because I really saw how people were being treated, not only in terms of the adverse impacts that these polluting infrastructure would bring to them, but also just how they were treated day to day.

You know, whether it's dealing with the companies or other people in coalition , I got to see how people were being treated in a kind of micro and macro level. And you know how they say, you know, you see something, you can't unsee it. I couldn't unsee it and I really became very committed to environmental justice then at NRDC.

And so that was just great. Um, again, a good experience in there. And then I builded on that when I left to start my consulting practice, Ja Green Consulting. And I got to do some of the same things that I was doing at NRDC plus some other things, with more people. Uh, so that's really how I, I got grounded in doing this work through, you know, starting in the private sector, but then learning about the issues that are presenting themselves, existential issues [00:06:00] of climate change and environmental justice.

And, you know, moving to the NGO world and being really committed and really passionate about, and caring about these issues. Uh, where I sit now.

Erica: Can I pull on this a little bit, Monte, and ask you to talk about Ja Green? First of all, what, why is it called JA Green? And number two, how does that differ from the work that you are doing at NRDC, the Natural Resources Defense Council?

Montina Cole: Right. So, Ja Green is actually try, I try to inject a little bit of yoga into it. I'm, I'm actually a student of yoga, um, certified to teach various forms of yoga. But JA is a Sanskrit term that means victory. So I thought, okay, victory to green, JA green. So that's, that's the background behind it.

Erica: I

Montina Cole: love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I had the opportunity to, one of the things I didn't mention when I did NRDC, there was of course the external facing work, but also had the opportunity to do some internal work. And I helped to lead the first equity initiative that they have to develop an equity tool, uh, and an [00:07:00] assessment around how we did our advocacy, right?

Looking at it from the equitable. Point of view in developing an equity tool to help guide our advocacy, uh, as we went forward. So when I started Ja Green, I had an opportunity to continue to do , that kind of work, but with additional kinds of organizations, uh, and also to, you know, be a strategic advisor on certain policy issues too.

At Ja Green, the focus is on integrated climate policy, racial equity and resilience in the intersections of those, three areas.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: My, and, and Martin isn't saying it, but, uh, sh giving us a small bird's eye view of her phenomenal body of work. So I just wanna make sure we all get that the impact of her work.

And Montena, I'm going to take you from, um. NRDC from ferc, and talk about how the relationship between what you observed in both places and just [00:08:00] generally and how the Center for Energy and Environmental Justice came about as a result of that.

Montina Cole: Sure. So, um, let me start a little bit with ferc. So, and also I shouldn't assume, right?

'cause you know, what is ferc? Most people have never even heard of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. And one of my friends in has said in, in this arena that we play in environmental justice, energy, and environment. I think it was Tyson Slocum, actually a public citizen that said that, um, FERC is the most important agency you've never heard of.

And so just so people know, ferc, it regulates great parts, many parts of the energy industry, uh, only at the wholesale and interstate levels, though. Uh, so inter it regulates things like the interstate transmission of electricity of gas, methane gas, and, and oil. It reviews, gas pipeline proposals, as well as other types of in infrastructure.

But the bottom line is that it's really important because of course energy is very critical to our lives. It powers everything that we need to, to really live. And so [00:09:00] they regulate a great swath of the energy industry at the federal and interstate level. Um, when I got a chance to go to ferc, this is when I was at the consulting firm and a wonderful person, rich Glick, who was an old friend of mine , became a chair.

He was appointed chair by president Biden. And he said that he wanted to do something about environmental justice, and he used to say this publicly, he would say, it's no secret that FERC needs to do better on environmental justice. Uh, one thing I didn't talk about is, you know, as a kind of a case study is that is the Atlantic Coast Pipeline case.

Uh, that was a case of, uh, you know what, a 600 mile, 7.5 billion multi-state pipeline, uh, that would've run through West Virginia, Virginia, and to North Carolina, including through. A historic black community, a Freedman settlement community called Union Hill in Buckingham County, Virginia. One of the, um, a rural community, one of the, the most poor communities in, in the state.

You know, very sacred sites there, lots of [00:10:00] elders and they would've been placed almost smack dab right up against a compressor station, which is this very, um, polluting part of a pipeline route that it helps to push the gas through. So it's a very industrial facility that's part of a pipeline route, and they would've been right there, right near it, you know, and of course coming right into play with everything that they had already to deal with on a ba at a baseline level in terms of, you know, what the health disparities look like in, in our community there.

So, you know, you have and fe approved that a pipeline, but it is one of the, actually the success stories because ultimately it was canceled after a huge and wonderful. Effort of a very broad coalition of people who oppose that pipeline. And I believe that that, that cancellation, ultimately the, the company just backed away and said too much was in large part, I believe, due to the environmental justice movement that got behind that and amplified and shone a light on what would've happened to Union Hill.

And that really was a story that became very widely known. Yeah. So [00:11:00] everybody understood that FERC had an issue, and it, 'cause, you know, FERC had approved it, right? It only got canceled because, uh, of the pushing that, that happened afterwards.

So when Rich Glick came on board, he wanted to start an EJ and equity initiative. And one of the things he wanted to do was to create a position for a senior council. For environmental justice and equity. And that was, uh, one of many things that happened during his tenure that, you know, were supportive of environmental justice and equity.

So I had an opportunity to lay a foundation. Certainly not near as much as we would've wanted to accomplish, but to lay a foundation at the agency in terms of looking at, bringing those tools into play about, you know, let's assess how Burke does things.

It's practices, it's policies, it's processes, and , what does that look like from an equity perspective? Who's benefited and burdened by the way that FERC operates? And so we did that and we produced the first equity action plan that FERC had ever done. We also did some , supports for training for staff, and just a number of other things.

And so that was a great [00:12:00] uh, experience. But I'll have to say. And this helped to, you know, inform why I ultimately left as well. We, one of the, the things that we did was to revise what was then a 25-year-old outdated policy called the certificate PO policy statement, which is the policy that FERC uses to govern how it reviews gas pipelines.

That that statement is outdated. And so we came and we revised it and we were able to inject a lot of good considerations into it. And guidelines about environmental justice, for instance, that we need to take in consideration, cumulative impacts that we need to, uh, acknowledge the fact that environmental justice communities have endured a disproportionate burden of polluting infrastructure.

So that kind of language and that kind of guidance was in this revised policy statement. What do we wanna do that for? Because it certainly got the industry irate in the gas industry. And it got also the, uh, Senator Manchin, who was the chair of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, which had oversight [00:13:00] authority over for he, it got him uh, irate as well.

So between, , people on capital and he wasn't the only one, but between folks on Capitol Hill and folks in the industry who just could not believe, you know, that this is just too much. And that also coincided with Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So you had people saying things like, oh, we need more gas.

You know, despite the fact that many in Europe were then turning more to renewables, right? That that argument didn't really hold water. So, bottom line , rich Glick, was not confirmed. Although President Biden renominated him to continue in his chairmanship position, Senator Manchin refused to give him a, a nomination hearing.

And so he was, you know, not gonna be at the commission. And it was around also the same point that I was feeling that, you know, I can still do more on the outside. In missing the fight on the outside, there was a lot that we got to do. Again, not near enough to lay a good foundation, but there's also, you know, value in being on the outside.

And so around that same time, I decided to return back to Ja Green

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: and [00:14:00] but what's the relationship between all of that and the center?

Montina Cole: Yes. So I tell you lots, so many blessings I've had in my life around the same time that I returned to Ja Green. I had an opportunity to apply for an Open Society Foundations fellowship called the Leadership and Government Fellowship, which I was awarded.

And so that gave me the opportunity, the time and space to focus one on, on a project, which was to develop a tool for EJ communities to use at FERC to help them to make the case about cumulative impacts of gas projects. And so that was, um, something that I focused on, but that project was also part, and I would say emphasized part.

Of the driver for me creating the center because I've had in mind for some time informed by all my career experience, uh, the need for our communities, particularly black environmental justice communities to, for instance, have the same kind of training and [00:15:00] capabilities that folks in big law firms have, get the kind of training that I had, right.

To not just rely on big green organizations, environmental organizations to represent EJ communities at ferc, although I'm very pleased that they do and they are great allies. But we, I also wanted to have us have the ability to, you know, bring forth our own stories, uh, our own facts, our own data at ferc.

Nobody knows our communities better than we do. I wanted us to be able to be better informed and impactful members also of coalitions that we operate in, right? Because, you know, the better informed and the better empowered we are also acting in coalition, the better off we are and everybody else.

And you don't, you know, take down these big kind of infrastructures, uh, by yourself. It really does take a village. . So all those things were kind of, you know, rambling in the back of my head for many years. Um, and also I've been blessed to have many opportunities to work in lots of different projects.

And people sometimes would come to me and say, wow, [00:16:00] Montana, essentially, I don't know anybody else like you who has this, you know, you're a black woman and you have this law firm experience and you've worked here and you've worked there and you're just greatt. One person told me you're a unicorn.

And I said. I understand that that was meant to be a compliment and I, you know, I appreciate that. But I thought to myself, no, that's not the answer. We don't want there to be only one or only two, or only three. And so I look at the center as being like the anti unicorn center because it will be successful if at, you know, five years down the line or sooner.

. We have a hundred Martinez. We have a hundred Adrians, we have a hundred Ericas, right? Mm-hmm. It's not, not just, just only, only can be only one type of situation.

Yeah.

Montina Cole: You know, I, I couldn't do all that work. I turned down lots of work. So that's, that's really kind of the, the impetus behind it, and that's helped to inform, um, you know, why I wanted to create the sim.

Yeah.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Wow. I love that vision. [00:17:00] I love that for all of us, for the EJ community, and, and I can tell that you're living what I always tell people that environmental justice is not a job. It's a calling. When we take a step back and think about how we can be more helpful than that is the, the US actualizing that.

That motto, right? That reality that it's a calling and we wanna know how we can do more. So I appreciate that. Now I wanna know, what are you doing? What you doing now? What's the center doing? What is happening? You know, because you've, you've talked about so many different things with such passion. I wanna know what Martin Cole is working on right now.

Montina Cole: All right, so, let me first of all just say a little bit about what the center is. Okay, so the center is intended to enhance. To support ADV advocacy, uh, on climate related issues that impact the most [00:18:00] overburdened EJ communities. And that's black EJ communities, uh, to help to support advocacy in regulatory forums where our communities have lacked the capacity to really engage more meaningfully .

And those, you know, end up being technical oriented forms like, like ferc. So basically the center really has three overall roles. Uh, one it serves as a training resource, right? So we're equipping folks, environmental justice organizations in particular, and those that they represent and equip equipping folks to be able to participate through trainings, whether it be webinars, uh, whether it be hands-on.

What I envision in the center and visions is to have a fellowship program where we actually have people come and we'll work on fur cases together. 'cause I believe. The best way to learn is by doing.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: I'm gonna stop you for a minute. I'm sorry. Didn't you create a certification program on, for, could you, I just wanna slide that in right there, because that's a perfect example of the training that you were referring to.

Montina Cole: Yes. I'm, I'm glad you say this. This wasn't a center, [00:19:00] uh, project per se. Uh, but it's certainly one of the tools that we point people to. And that is that I did a training for the Chisholm Legacy Project, uh, a wonderful, wonderful organization led by Jackie Patterson. Uh, and she had the great idea of putting together certification program where folks would come and take different courses, for instance, on energy justice, you know, water justice, what have you.

And she asked me to come on board and do one of these certification courses. About how to navigate the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to advance, adjust future. And so I did that and it is a, a series of several hours course that you can take and I highly, highly encourage people to take the course.

Uh, you can get different levels of certification depending upon what you do in response to taking to the course. So that is a tool that certainly the center recommends and, will be using with people. Um, that, , that work with us at the center. So yes, that's an example of the kind of training that we provide .

And secondly, also I see at the center is envisioned as really a thought leadership space. [00:20:00] Um, so that we can come together and have not just thoughts about how to move forward from a policy perspective and strategy perspective in the defensive mode that we are in necessarily in, you know, in these times especially, but also with our forward, future focused, uh, to our thinking, right?

We understand that, you know, government has never been perfect. Right now we're fighting to keep what is being dismantled. Not that it's perfect, but that we also know that we need this, but we need to build on it and envision new ways to go forward. So it is a space for thought leadership around, , best practices and what we wanna see going forward when we emerge from this mess because we will.

Um, and then thirdly is also a center for, um, providing resilient support. Resilience tools for our communities, something to foster personal and collective wellbeing. Uh, it's not easy, uh, to navigate, uh, life in general, especially these days, but especially for frontline communities. They're dealing with [00:21:00] all kinds of stressors.

And trauma really related to the environmental injustices that they, that they experience. And that's where I pull on, uh, a lot of the, kind of the yogic tools that I've been blessed to, you know, learn about and, and teach a little bit about, uh, in, in my life as well. Um, so those are the different overall arching roles.

And I should also mention too that it's model is one of partnership, uh, both in terms of working with, you know, the communities that we serve and also of bringing partnerships to bear in serving. These communities, the center, I cannot do the work alone. Again, it's the, the no unicorn, uh, approach. Right.

And I wanna also stress that it's really very brand new. Uh, it's, we're very much still in the startup stage. And we are also a fiscally sponsored project at the Movement Strategy Center, which is a wonderful organization.

Erica: Um, I wanna ask a two part question.

You've revert referred to environmental justice communities. Um, so let me ask you, how do you define those? And because I'm a GIS person, where do you find those [00:22:00] environmental justice communities?

Montina Cole: Well, good question. And I know that you all really know the answer to that, but when I think about environmental justice and environmental communities, uh, , first of all, the center is focused on working hand in hand with environmental justice organizations who then who, you know, serve communities.

That's really the focus. Uh, and we, when we think about environmental justice, we are thinking about communities that are disproportionately impacted. By certain forms of environmental harms. And that's been by and large people of color, that's been also tribal communities. But , what the center wants to do is get at those who are most that are worse impacted, those who are most marginalized, those who are most burdened.

And data shows very clearly that the most burdened communities have been black environmental justice communities. They're largely in the south. All we have to do is think about Cancer Alley. Uh, but, and the reason why we are uniquely impacted, of course, is because of the, the historical legacy of slavery in Jim Crow, which continues to [00:23:00] live on.

Uh, so those are the kind of communities I'm talking about when I'm talking about environmental justice. Communities in the center seeks to partner with environmental justice organizations that serve our communities.

Erica: On the GIS piece, well, , my perspective has to do with place, I think place is connected intrinsically, to environmental justice.

And I'm thinking about the work that you are doing training, um, environmental justice organizations. Is there a role for us as North Star to play and perhaps helping to put some of the GIS tools into the hands of these communities? And what might that look like for you?

Montina Cole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm so happy you mentioned that.

And me kind of contextualize a little bit. So one of the first things that the Center is doing through its first program, which is called FERC for All, is being involved in two gas pipeline cases. They are mega cases pipeline proposals. Uh, one is called the South System expansion, four SSE, four for short, and the other is called Mississippi [00:24:00] Crossing.

MSX, uh, we're talking about, you know, a total of over 600 miles of new pipeline. SSEE four run through, um, Alabama and Georgia. In this, uh, Mississippi Cross and would run through Mississippi and Alabama. And we're talking and you can guess whose communities, you know, are being disproportionately targeted.

So this is a very important case because we wanna make sure that our communities want, are aware of what's happening. Right, and we're coming into this case, it's already ongoing. It's in the application, uh, stage, but there's still opportunity to get involved to do things like file comments, to organize on the ground.

And so one of the things that's really important is we try to educate not only ourselves, but others that we want to influence is to be able to explain what this thing means. Who's being impacted, and this is where maps really are very important tool. Now at ferc, what the companies, the, the pipeline developers are required to do is to file what, what essentially paper maps.

I mean, they're in PDF form format and uh, [00:25:00] online amongst hundreds of other pages. You know, in their, in their applications. We're talking like ultimately thousands of pages that are in these dockets that you have to, you know, look through, they're buried. You have to find 'em, and then you look at it.

And you want, and the, the question is, you know, how am I impacted? Does that piece of paper answer the question? No, I mean, you don't have an ability to even figure out where you are on that map. So that's why it's really important, I think, to have interactive maps in the kind of interactivity that a GIS map, uh, uh, allows us to to have, and to not only be able to place ourselves to see , where the places are, you know, , where I'm situated, where's my school?

Where's my church? You know, where are the hospitals that, how close are they to the pipeline? Not only to be able to see that, but to be able to add in layers, right? When we're talking about the cumulative impact of these pipelines, there's a certain baseline that these pipelines already come to, what I call the black baseline.

And that is that you're by and large gonna be looking at higher rates of respiratory illness, cancers and things like that [00:26:00] because we are disproportionately, uh, near already polluting facilities. So where are those facilities? We need to see that. We need to be able to visualize all this, so where we are and then all the layers that impact us.

And I think that's a very important thing that, you know, GS GIS mapping can, can provide. It's something that we really don't have. We've had some people step into the gap. You know, some organizations have mapped certain parts of it, but there's a critical need really for folks to map the Mississippi Crossing Pipeline.

That's something that's not been done at all, . I mean, one of the meetings that I've convened with some of the ej EJ folks around this, this, um, pipeline, one of the folks said, you know, hey, I wanna go and talk to my, you know, representative about this, and I need some handouts.

And so, you know, that'd be great to be able to take a snapshot of that, what I just described, put it in the handout form and then, hand it to them. So, 'cause we know everybody's not, you know, on the internet because of the digital divide. So it's just many benefits that can accrue from having GIS mapping and it's something that's really, really needed in [00:27:00] this space.

Erica: Thank you so much for that. I, I, I know that we've got a call to action coming, but I'm taking this as a personal call to action, uh, to try to galvanize the North Star community to see how we can support the work that you are doing at the center.

Montina Cole: Hmm. Hmm. Definitely the mapping. Uh, if we, you know, on my, my wishlist right now is an interactive map, GIS map of the Mississippi crossing, uh, route for sure.

And I should say too that is not just necessary for these pipelines. These are only two of many pipelines that are still, that are being proposed for the south. Uh, there's the SSEP pipeline, there's the border, uh, boardwalk pipeline. I could name many others and more coming down the pike. Because under the curtain curtain circumstances in which we live now, the environment is such that, you know, people are coming forward and we're seeing proliferation of polluting pipelines and other harmful infrastructures .

. Oh,

Erica: baby drill. Drill. [00:28:00] Baby drill.

Montina Cole: Okay. Exactly.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Martina, . I wanted to, I'm so excited about this project. I know I've been kind of following you and vol volunteering to sit there and look like I know what I'm talking about when I don't, but I'm learning so much. When you talk about the pipelines and earlier you mentioned cumulative exposures, and I'm seeing a total connection between all of the pipelines you just talked, not just the two, but you said there are many more and many more coming.

Wouldn't it be great to have a map check this uh, this interactive map also have on it, uh, information on different health effects caused by 'cause. These are gas pipelines we're talking about. Of course, they're. You also see other types of pipelines that, some of which may travel a similar route, right?

Mm-hmm. And so the exposures can be from, um, one or more different sources. So it seems like knowing that if a person say, I put my area code in and I know that in my, depending on what I'm exposed to, what [00:29:00] pipeline I'm near, that these are some of the health effects that have been reported, or these are some of the potential health effects from different contaminants.

And I'm wondering if that, , one of the reasons that, this would be so, I, so important and it's so imperative, and I think in our conversations, you've said something about this can be replicated for a lot of different you know, a lot of different things outside the pipeline.

Montina Cole: Hmm.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: You know, and can you just talk briefly about that, about the larger picture of how important this work is and this mapping is.

Montina Cole: Sure. I mean, in terms of other context, as I said, you know, there's other pipelines coming down the pipe. You know, so we have the opportunity to use these tools in other.

Cases, but also, you know, there's other forms of infrastructure that may not necessarily be on infrastructure that people want in their backyard. And rightfully so, uh, data centers come to mind, right? And all the issues that they present, you know, use of water, uh, noise other [00:30:00] types of things.

And that could be, you know, worth a webinar in and of itself just to talk about data centers. But let's see where they fall on the map. Let's visualize that. And in fact, what we see is that, you know, some of these pipelines are providing that as one of the big reasons why they're so-called needed because, oh, we need this gas mm-hmm.

To be able to fuel the power plants that will then in turn serve these, uh, these, the data centers. Mm-hmm. Now we're seeing also, of course, that these projected, the projected need, uh, is, is overinflated and a lot of data is beginning to support that. But this is being, you know, touted as something that's needed and they're being constructed.

In many of our communities, I mean, you know, think about Memphis, that's just a, you know, a horrible case study about what can happen to a community, uh, and all the ga, the gas fired plants that are powering, uh, that turbines that are powering that center. So it'd be great to also, when we talk about layers, yes.

The, the health indicators, like you mentioned, Adrian. But other polluting infrastructure and that I would add to that. Data centers. Yeah. So that's something, whenever anybody's thinking about or [00:31:00] hearing about a data center come into their community, that's, let's get the mapping out and let's see what other factors are there that need to be shown in that map.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: And I'm so glad you mentioned data centers because that will be , the next podcast after this one. Um, so, so this is a perfect segue into the importance of that and how these are all connected. So, how cool is that, that you know, we can do that plug and, and let people know what's to come.

And I appreciate that and I think it's important to, with all of the information that, gosh, that we've learned today, I think it's important to, I. To talk a little bit more. You know, people normally have three main questions, right? What is it? How does it affect me and what can I do about it? And we've gotten information, particularly when it relates to these pipelines and the importance of mapping on what it is, what the pipelines are all about, and why they're a concern.

And we talked a little bit about general health effects, knowing that , our marginalized communities, have higher. [00:32:00] Adverse health conditions from their location and the things that they are exposed to and that they have to live with. But now I wanna ask you, you know, all this, it's not gloom and doom.

I mean, you know, we talk a lot, generally in the EJ space in other spaces about community involvement and participation and engagement. And not just communities, but those of activists and advocates, uh, for these issues. So. I know you've been focusing on the, uh, two pipelines in Alabama and, um, I mean Mississippi and, and Alabama.

So the MSX and the SSE four. So where can we get involved since that's the immediate threat that the center is focused on? What can people do? What have people done and, uh, where can we fit in?

Montina Cole: Right. Yeah, I mean, I guess I would suggest many different ways. One, first of all, please feel free to reach out to the center, um, and the website is Climate Center for [00:33:00] ej.org.

I would also suggest that folks reach out to the Office of Public Participation, OPP, which is at ferc. OPP is actually a wonderful, uh, what I think of is the bright shining light at FERC right now. It's a wonderful office that was created when, uh, chairman Rich Glick was there, and it's, it is created to support regular folk who don't have big attorneys.

Consultants and everything representing them at ferc regular folk who don't know much about FERC to help and support them in engaging at ferc. Uh, so they promote public participation at ferc, uh, and it's run by a wonderful director, Nicole c Ramen. You can just go on FERC's Deck website.

You'll see the, the, the page for OPP, the Office of Public Participation, and they have all sorts of, they'll talk to you, they're very responsive, talk to you on the phone. They have tons of different explainers and how to sheets about how to file comments at ferc, how to get involved, breaking down complex, uh, type concepts.

So I would encourage you to reach out to OPP. I, again, you know, [00:34:00] just say, uh, look into taking the, um, Chism, the Chisholm, uh, navigating FERC for Justice certification course, which I taught. And also to monitor FERC dockets. And again, this is something that IOPP and others can help folks with to just try to monitor what's going on at FERC and see what's coming down the pike, uh, to get in front of things.

I'd encourage people to join coalitions or groups. That are already involved seek out environmental justice organizations that are, uh, involved in some of these things. A lot of the times, like Deep South Center like, uh, we act so many different other organizations. And the, these are kind of ways, point of entry into getting involved. Uh, and then once you're involved, you have the opportunity to do things like file comments, attend scoping sessions, uh, and other things. So I'm very, very happy to, you know, hear from anybody who wants some help. And how do I get involved? Uh, so the center, OPP at ferc EEJ organizations.

Uh, and then just going onto FE'S website to try to monitor what's what's happening.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: And you guys, uh, the center has been [00:35:00] doing that for, in relation to these pipelines or where are you in that process with

Montina Cole: work? Right, right. Again, very, very beginning stages and we came into the, you know, this case, these cases midstream, but yeah, we've had the opportunity to do, some open house sessions where I just invite people to ask any questions that they may have about, you know, how do I, the same thing you're asking Adrian, how do I get involved?

How do I file a comment? Um, you know, how do I logistically do that, which, and then, you know, substantively what should I put in it? Um, and then just having some kind of educational information sharing type meetings too. Among, among EJ folks. Yes.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Mm-hmm.

Montina Cole: Mm-hmm. We've been doing some of that.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: And you all have submitted comments then.

Montina Cole: Not the center per se, and the center is not really engaging in, in that way. But what we wanna do again, is to support and uplift our communities, our EJ organizations and the communities that they represent in putting forth their stories themselves.

Supporting them in, in doing that.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: And people can submit maps like the, that you were discuss, you guys were discussing earlier, the GIS maps. People can [00:36:00] submit that as part of their comment.

Montina Cole: Sure. I mean, I think that people could certainly, you know, one you know, take a, PDF picture for lack of a better word, and submit it or a link to it that people could go on and see.

Absolutely. People could do that. And that's also, that's a very good idea to, that's a very good thing to do, you know, not just having just this written, you know, one piece of paper. You know, they say a picture's worth a thousand words, right? But the gi a link to a GIS GIS map, that's worth, you know, how many more hundreds of words for people to actually see it.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Thank you for all of this great information. And then I have, because I'm a lawyer, I can't help myself. I have a, a litigation question. So would these maps that you know, we've all been discussing be helpful in litigation against companies that want to, for example, expand a pipeline or enhance a pipeline, would they be useful?

In addressing some of the claims or concerns that that company might make in their applications. For example, to FERC [00:37:00] are some of the things that they may say for, I'm just get, there are no communities nearby or nobody's gonna be at risk, or something like that.

Montina Cole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I think that it would certainly bolster our case, bolster comments and putting, inputting this just another, you know, more evidence, more facts, right?

Mm-hmm. We need to not just be relying on what the company says. Uh, okay. FERC is an independent agency and it should be weighing all the information coming in from all different interested parties. And the more that we can make things plain at ferc, that's good. And then also it'll be made plain for the, the courts to the extent that we get an unfavorable decision, which of course, we know happens a lot at ferc.

And then it gets appealed to, uh, to the higher level to a court. So that would also be an evidence and, and reviewed by a court as well,.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Thank you for that. When you brought up the Buckingham County issue against the, uh, a CP pipeline, I immediately remember because I too was one of the people who had some [00:38:00] you know, we, we participated in a people's, uh, people's, um.

Montina Cole: Tribunal

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Tribunal, thank you. For against, um, human I'm gonna say human atrocities, that wasn't the correct term, but I remember that the community had created, and it's the friends of Buckingham County had created this map, and that particular map was a map of this grave site that would've been up.

Uh, ended, had the pipeline gone through and they were able to show on this map where their ancestors had been buried by using, some sort of, um, data process. You remember what I'm talking about? And they were showing that if you disturb this sacred ground. That these are our ancestors and this is one of the small things that can happen, you know, small but important things, you know, because this is our history, and as you said, it was a freedman's community that means created by former slaves or the [00:39:00] descendants of former slaves

Montina Cole: right, yes. I'm, I'm so happy you mentioned that. That was, that was a remarkable thing, right?

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Yeah.

Montina Cole: And even picked up what they call what the sunken graves. They didn't have the headstones. Right. But like you said, they were able to detect it using that technology. Right. All that was just so was wonderful. And they brought that to bear and they brought it to bear successfully before court.

Right. Not, uh, with respect to the FERC case, because there's many different sometimes related cases when it comes to these projects and they appealed, uh, a negative decision that they got from a state regulator. Regarding a, a air and water quality permit that was needed. And the court took that type of evidence, you know, that's, that's, there was other different kind of evidence that they put forward, but they were, the court was cognizant, you know, what was put forward.

So again, it's very important to get all these things in the record, 'cause it can certainly help to support your case, uh, before on appeal. And they, they won that case on appeal.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: So getting this information, you know, although we say for FERC, it can be used if I'm reading you right. [00:40:00] At the state and local level too.

It can be used in a variety of ways. That's how impactful this sort of information is.

Montina Cole: Absolutely.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Yeah. Okay.

Montina Cole: Absolutely. For, for regulatory agencies, before courts in community meetings, just as educational tools before, uh, representatives, elected officials at the state and local level, uh, many different, many different, uh, ways it can be used and then to be used in different contexts later.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, also to ma uh, mention that it's important. I think that not only that we map the harms, but also the good things about our communities. 'cause when I think about the black baseline, it's not always just about the adverse, our challenges, but also our treasures. Right. And I know, Erica, you mentioned Place, place is very important to us.

So we wanna be able to see and visualize, you know, the great things, the things , our cultural heritages, you know, sacred spaces, grave sites, you know, that's very important to us to be able to, to lift up what is wonderful about our communities in which we don't want to be [00:41:00] adversely impacted by these polluting infrastructures.

Mm-hmm.

Erica: I remain excited about the opportunity to put tools in the hands of people who are not, say the experts in leveraging these tools. And there are things that we are able to do now that were so difficult, even five or 10 years ago, but now we've got. , In our hands, in our cell phones, the ability to create story maps or the ability to collect information and to share it with analysts.

I, I'm a data nerd. I'm a blurred, a proud blurred. But I recognize that even if you're looking at a spreadsheet with numbers and addresses, it's when you see. See it actually graphically depicted, it has a totally different impact than that spreadsheet

I I can't stop thinking about the importance of the graphic and the visualization of data, of places of, um, as you said, not just harms, but our treasures as well. So I, I'm excited about the work that you're doing, excited about the opportunities [00:42:00] that we now have to help further the work .

Montina Cole: Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited as well,

Erica: and we're coming to about the close of the hour. Montana, it is an absolute pleasure to meet you, Arienne. I'm always excited by the people that you bring to the North Star Gaze, and you have elevated what we are doing here at the North Star gaze by the quality that you bring to these conversations.

But Montana, you've just. You know, my head is a little bit exploding right now as I think about all the things that you do and all the things that we might be able to do to to work with you. But thank you so much for your time today. We truly appreciate you.

Montina Cole: Thank you again. The privilege and the pleasure is mine.

Thank you so much.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Thank you, Martin. Thank you, Erica.

Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the North Star Gaze, intimate stories from geo luminaries. If you're inspired to advance racial justice in geo fields, please share this podcast with other listeners in your [00:43:00] community. The intro and outro, or produced by Organized Sound Productions with original music created by Kid Bodega.

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audio1837510601

Speaker: [00:00:00] Be black. Be black. Be bold. Bold. Be innovative. Show the world equitable gl.

Speaker 2: We're coming together as a collective to celebrate people of African descent, the diaspora, and talking about geospatial equity and justice.

Speaker: You're listening to the North Star Gaze, a podcast with intimate stories from GL luminaries.

Erica: Welcome to another episode of Season three of the North Star Gaze. I am really excited today. In addition to Dr. Adrian Hollis, we've got Monte Cole on the podcast today. Monte currently serves as director of the New Climate Center for Energy and Environmental Justice, which supports advocacy for communities in regulatory forums where.

[00:01:00] Environmental justice communities have lacked capacity to more fully engage as principal at Ja Green Consulting, where she also works. Uh, she's worked at the intersections of integrated climate policy, racial equity and resilience, providing clients with holistic tools and solutions for sustainability.

Montana has. An extraordinary background, , I want you to understand who we have the opportunity to hear from today. So, Monte Montana served as the first Senior Council for Environmental Justice and Equity at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which you may know of as Burke.

There, she led the unprecedented. Unprecedented initiative to integrate environmental justice and equity into the agency's work, including creation of the agency's first equity action plan. She also led the gas pipeline policy advocacy work and helped to lead the initiative to incorporate racial equity considerations at the National Resources Defense Council.

[00:02:00] Um, before joining NRDC. C spent almost 20 years practicing energy law in corporate law firms representing a wide variety of clients and concentrating on electricity industry regulation. Uh, she's just a powerhouse, y'all. So, um, thank you so much for making time to speak with the North Star Gaze audience today.

We are really excited to have you here. A Adrian, if you don't mind, I'm gonna kick off with the first question. Sure. For what was the focus of your work in the past, and how did that lead you to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission?

Montina Cole: Sure. And thank you so much, Erica and Adrienne, uh, for inviting me to be on the show.

I just really love what you do and it's really a privilege and a pleasure for me to be here with you. Um, so most of my career actually was spent in private practice, uh, practicing energy law and corporate law firms. And there's when I began to do work, uh, representing clients before the ferc, uh, and [00:03:00] primarily with respect to the regulation of electric utilities, uh, electric regulatory law.

So that's, uh, where I really started out, out of law school and being in, in corporate law firms. But I really became interested in climate issues and then also environmental justice issues, especially as they relate to the energy sector. When I started learning about climate change, when I was pr, still practicing in private practice, I liked the folks that I worked with.

I liked the work that I had an opportunity to do, but once I started understanding what climate change meant and who was disproportionately impacted by its effects? Uh, I really started to take stock of what I was doing, uh, and knowing that I did not want to be in a situation where I was, for instance, helping a client to build a coal plant I thought, you know, I need to maybe do something different.

I wanna be part of the solution, , not part of the problem. Um, so, you know, at the same time while I was at the law firm, I was doing things on my off hours too, like starting to go to, uh, climate, uh, education sessions, getting involved with protests. Like the [00:04:00] protests of the Keystone Oil Pipeline at the White House.

Ended up getting arrested in that pipeline. Um, bill McKibben and others did the training for that. It was quite an experience, uh, but I knew that it was really important to me to do something more like that. Um, and so that's also at the same time fortunately that an opportunity presented itself for me to go and, um, and I wound up at NRDC, the natural resources, , defense council.

And that was just a wonderful experience for me . Because there I had an opportunity to help to develop the first, uh, gas pipeline advocacy project that they had had, and I got involved again with respect to ferc, which I had a lot of, you know, background representing clients before that, that reg, that regulator.

But this time I was more on the side of, of rate payers, and I had the opportunity to do that as well. Uh, at the law firm, but with respect to other issues. But here we are fighting, uh, gas pipelines that are endangering, uh, disproportionately black environmental justice communities. And so that, that was a switch.

And that was also something that I had not had a chance to [00:05:00] do at the law firm in terms of environmental justice practice. And I tell you it really opened my eyes. Because I really saw how people were being treated, not only in terms of the adverse impacts that these polluting infrastructure would bring to them, but also just how they were treated day to day.

You know, whether it's dealing with the companies or other people in coalition , I got to see how people were being treated in a kind of micro and macro level. And you know how they say, you know, you see something, you can't unsee it. I couldn't unsee it and I really became very committed to environmental justice then at NRDC.

And so that was just great. Um, again, a good experience in there. And then I builded on that when I left to start my consulting practice, Ja Green Consulting. And I got to do some of the same things that I was doing at NRDC plus some other things, with more people. Uh, so that's really how I, I got grounded in doing this work through, you know, starting in the private sector, but then learning about the issues that are presenting themselves, existential issues [00:06:00] of climate change and environmental justice.

And, you know, moving to the NGO world and being really committed and really passionate about, and caring about these issues. Uh, where I sit now.

Erica: Can I pull on this a little bit, Monte, and ask you to talk about Ja Green? First of all, what, why is it called JA Green? And number two, how does that differ from the work that you are doing at NRDC, the Natural Resources Defense Council?

Montina Cole: Right. So, Ja Green is actually try, I try to inject a little bit of yoga into it. I'm, I'm actually a student of yoga, um, certified to teach various forms of yoga. But JA is a Sanskrit term that means victory. So I thought, okay, victory to green, JA green. So that's, that's the background behind it.

Erica: I

Montina Cole: love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I had the opportunity to, one of the things I didn't mention when I did NRDC, there was of course the external facing work, but also had the opportunity to do some internal work. And I helped to lead the first equity initiative that they have to develop an equity tool, uh, and an [00:07:00] assessment around how we did our advocacy, right?

Looking at it from the equitable. Point of view in developing an equity tool to help guide our advocacy, uh, as we went forward. So when I started Ja Green, I had an opportunity to continue to do , that kind of work, but with additional kinds of organizations, uh, and also to, you know, be a strategic advisor on certain policy issues too.

At Ja Green, the focus is on integrated climate policy, racial equity and resilience in the intersections of those, three areas.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: My, and, and Martin isn't saying it, but, uh, sh giving us a small bird's eye view of her phenomenal body of work. So I just wanna make sure we all get that the impact of her work.

And Montena, I'm going to take you from, um. NRDC from ferc, and talk about how the relationship between what you observed in both places and just [00:08:00] generally and how the Center for Energy and Environmental Justice came about as a result of that.

Montina Cole: Sure. So, um, let me start a little bit with ferc. So, and also I shouldn't assume, right?

'cause you know, what is ferc? Most people have never even heard of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. And one of my friends in has said in, in this arena that we play in environmental justice, energy, and environment. I think it was Tyson Slocum, actually a public citizen that said that, um, FERC is the most important agency you've never heard of.

And so just so people know, ferc, it regulates great parts, many parts of the energy industry, uh, only at the wholesale and interstate levels, though. Uh, so inter it regulates things like the interstate transmission of electricity of gas, methane gas, and, and oil. It reviews, gas pipeline proposals, as well as other types of in infrastructure.

But the bottom line is that it's really important because of course energy is very critical to our lives. It powers everything that we need to, to really live. And so [00:09:00] they regulate a great swath of the energy industry at the federal and interstate level. Um, when I got a chance to go to ferc, this is when I was at the consulting firm and a wonderful person, rich Glick, who was an old friend of mine , became a chair.

He was appointed chair by president Biden. And he said that he wanted to do something about environmental justice, and he used to say this publicly, he would say, it's no secret that FERC needs to do better on environmental justice. Uh, one thing I didn't talk about is, you know, as a kind of a case study is that is the Atlantic Coast Pipeline case.

Uh, that was a case of, uh, you know what, a 600 mile, 7.5 billion multi-state pipeline, uh, that would've run through West Virginia, Virginia, and to North Carolina, including through. A historic black community, a Freedman settlement community called Union Hill in Buckingham County, Virginia. One of the, um, a rural community, one of the, the most poor communities in, in the state.

You know, very sacred sites there, lots of [00:10:00] elders and they would've been placed almost smack dab right up against a compressor station, which is this very, um, polluting part of a pipeline route that it helps to push the gas through. So it's a very industrial facility that's part of a pipeline route, and they would've been right there, right near it, you know, and of course coming right into play with everything that they had already to deal with on a ba at a baseline level in terms of, you know, what the health disparities look like in, in our community there.

So, you know, you have and fe approved that a pipeline, but it is one of the, actually the success stories because ultimately it was canceled after a huge and wonderful. Effort of a very broad coalition of people who oppose that pipeline. And I believe that that, that cancellation, ultimately the, the company just backed away and said too much was in large part, I believe, due to the environmental justice movement that got behind that and amplified and shone a light on what would've happened to Union Hill.

And that really was a story that became very widely known. Yeah. So [00:11:00] everybody understood that FERC had an issue, and it, 'cause, you know, FERC had approved it, right? It only got canceled because, uh, of the pushing that, that happened afterwards.

So when Rich Glick came on board, he wanted to start an EJ and equity initiative. And one of the things he wanted to do was to create a position for a senior council. For environmental justice and equity. And that was, uh, one of many things that happened during his tenure that, you know, were supportive of environmental justice and equity.

So I had an opportunity to lay a foundation. Certainly not near as much as we would've wanted to accomplish, but to lay a foundation at the agency in terms of looking at, bringing those tools into play about, you know, let's assess how Burke does things.

It's practices, it's policies, it's processes, and , what does that look like from an equity perspective? Who's benefited and burdened by the way that FERC operates? And so we did that and we produced the first equity action plan that FERC had ever done. We also did some , supports for training for staff, and just a number of other things.

And so that was a great [00:12:00] uh, experience. But I'll have to say. And this helped to, you know, inform why I ultimately left as well. We, one of the, the things that we did was to revise what was then a 25-year-old outdated policy called the certificate PO policy statement, which is the policy that FERC uses to govern how it reviews gas pipelines.

That that statement is outdated. And so we came and we revised it and we were able to inject a lot of good considerations into it. And guidelines about environmental justice, for instance, that we need to take in consideration, cumulative impacts that we need to, uh, acknowledge the fact that environmental justice communities have endured a disproportionate burden of polluting infrastructure.

So that kind of language and that kind of guidance was in this revised policy statement. What do we wanna do that for? Because it certainly got the industry irate in the gas industry. And it got also the, uh, Senator Manchin, who was the chair of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, which had oversight [00:13:00] authority over for he, it got him uh, irate as well.

So between, , people on capital and he wasn't the only one, but between folks on Capitol Hill and folks in the industry who just could not believe, you know, that this is just too much. And that also coincided with Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So you had people saying things like, oh, we need more gas.

You know, despite the fact that many in Europe were then turning more to renewables, right? That that argument didn't really hold water. So, bottom line , rich Glick, was not confirmed. Although President Biden renominated him to continue in his chairmanship position, Senator Manchin refused to give him a, a nomination hearing.

And so he was, you know, not gonna be at the commission. And it was around also the same point that I was feeling that, you know, I can still do more on the outside. In missing the fight on the outside, there was a lot that we got to do. Again, not near enough to lay a good foundation, but there's also, you know, value in being on the outside.

And so around that same time, I decided to return back to Ja Green

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: and [00:14:00] but what's the relationship between all of that and the center?

Montina Cole: Yes. So I tell you lots, so many blessings I've had in my life around the same time that I returned to Ja Green. I had an opportunity to apply for an Open Society Foundations fellowship called the Leadership and Government Fellowship, which I was awarded.

And so that gave me the opportunity, the time and space to focus one on, on a project, which was to develop a tool for EJ communities to use at FERC to help them to make the case about cumulative impacts of gas projects. And so that was, um, something that I focused on, but that project was also part, and I would say emphasized part.

Of the driver for me creating the center because I've had in mind for some time informed by all my career experience, uh, the need for our communities, particularly black environmental justice communities to, for instance, have the same kind of training and [00:15:00] capabilities that folks in big law firms have, get the kind of training that I had, right.

To not just rely on big green organizations, environmental organizations to represent EJ communities at ferc, although I'm very pleased that they do and they are great allies. But we, I also wanted to have us have the ability to, you know, bring forth our own stories, uh, our own facts, our own data at ferc.

Nobody knows our communities better than we do. I wanted us to be able to be better informed and impactful members also of coalitions that we operate in, right? Because, you know, the better informed and the better empowered we are also acting in coalition, the better off we are and everybody else.

And you don't, you know, take down these big kind of infrastructures, uh, by yourself. It really does take a village. . So all those things were kind of, you know, rambling in the back of my head for many years. Um, and also I've been blessed to have many opportunities to work in lots of different projects.

And people sometimes would come to me and say, wow, [00:16:00] Montana, essentially, I don't know anybody else like you who has this, you know, you're a black woman and you have this law firm experience and you've worked here and you've worked there and you're just greatt. One person told me you're a unicorn.

And I said. I understand that that was meant to be a compliment and I, you know, I appreciate that. But I thought to myself, no, that's not the answer. We don't want there to be only one or only two, or only three. And so I look at the center as being like the anti unicorn center because it will be successful if at, you know, five years down the line or sooner.

. We have a hundred Martinez. We have a hundred Adrians, we have a hundred Ericas, right? Mm-hmm. It's not, not just, just only, only can be only one type of situation.

Yeah.

Montina Cole: You know, I, I couldn't do all that work. I turned down lots of work. So that's, that's really kind of the, the impetus behind it, and that's helped to inform, um, you know, why I wanted to create the sim.

Yeah.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Wow. I love that vision. [00:17:00] I love that for all of us, for the EJ community, and, and I can tell that you're living what I always tell people that environmental justice is not a job. It's a calling. When we take a step back and think about how we can be more helpful than that is the, the US actualizing that.

That motto, right? That reality that it's a calling and we wanna know how we can do more. So I appreciate that. Now I wanna know, what are you doing? What you doing now? What's the center doing? What is happening? You know, because you've, you've talked about so many different things with such passion. I wanna know what Martin Cole is working on right now.

Montina Cole: All right, so, let me first of all just say a little bit about what the center is. Okay, so the center is intended to enhance. To support ADV advocacy, uh, on climate related issues that impact the most [00:18:00] overburdened EJ communities. And that's black EJ communities, uh, to help to support advocacy in regulatory forums where our communities have lacked the capacity to really engage more meaningfully .

And those, you know, end up being technical oriented forms like, like ferc. So basically the center really has three overall roles. Uh, one it serves as a training resource, right? So we're equipping folks, environmental justice organizations in particular, and those that they represent and equip equipping folks to be able to participate through trainings, whether it be webinars, uh, whether it be hands-on.

What I envision in the center and visions is to have a fellowship program where we actually have people come and we'll work on fur cases together. 'cause I believe. The best way to learn is by doing.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: I'm gonna stop you for a minute. I'm sorry. Didn't you create a certification program on, for, could you, I just wanna slide that in right there, because that's a perfect example of the training that you were referring to.

Montina Cole: Yes. I'm, I'm glad you say this. This wasn't a center, [00:19:00] uh, project per se. Uh, but it's certainly one of the tools that we point people to. And that is that I did a training for the Chisholm Legacy Project, uh, a wonderful, wonderful organization led by Jackie Patterson. Uh, and she had the great idea of putting together certification program where folks would come and take different courses, for instance, on energy justice, you know, water justice, what have you.

And she asked me to come on board and do one of these certification courses. About how to navigate the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to advance, adjust future. And so I did that and it is a, a series of several hours course that you can take and I highly, highly encourage people to take the course.

Uh, you can get different levels of certification depending upon what you do in response to taking to the course. So that is a tool that certainly the center recommends and, will be using with people. Um, that, , that work with us at the center. So yes, that's an example of the kind of training that we provide .

And secondly, also I see at the center is envisioned as really a thought leadership space. [00:20:00] Um, so that we can come together and have not just thoughts about how to move forward from a policy perspective and strategy perspective in the defensive mode that we are in necessarily in, you know, in these times especially, but also with our forward, future focused, uh, to our thinking, right?

We understand that, you know, government has never been perfect. Right now we're fighting to keep what is being dismantled. Not that it's perfect, but that we also know that we need this, but we need to build on it and envision new ways to go forward. So it is a space for thought leadership around, , best practices and what we wanna see going forward when we emerge from this mess because we will.

Um, and then thirdly is also a center for, um, providing resilient support. Resilience tools for our communities, something to foster personal and collective wellbeing. Uh, it's not easy, uh, to navigate, uh, life in general, especially these days, but especially for frontline communities. They're dealing with [00:21:00] all kinds of stressors.

And trauma really related to the environmental injustices that they, that they experience. And that's where I pull on, uh, a lot of the, kind of the yogic tools that I've been blessed to, you know, learn about and, and teach a little bit about, uh, in, in my life as well. Um, so those are the different overall arching roles.

And I should also mention too that it's model is one of partnership, uh, both in terms of working with, you know, the communities that we serve and also of bringing partnerships to bear in serving. These communities, the center, I cannot do the work alone. Again, it's the, the no unicorn, uh, approach. Right.

And I wanna also stress that it's really very brand new. Uh, it's, we're very much still in the startup stage. And we are also a fiscally sponsored project at the Movement Strategy Center, which is a wonderful organization.

Erica: Um, I wanna ask a two part question.

You've revert referred to environmental justice communities. Um, so let me ask you, how do you define those? And because I'm a GIS person, where do you find those [00:22:00] environmental justice communities?

Montina Cole: Well, good question. And I know that you all really know the answer to that, but when I think about environmental justice and environmental communities, uh, , first of all, the center is focused on working hand in hand with environmental justice organizations who then who, you know, serve communities.

That's really the focus. Uh, and we, when we think about environmental justice, we are thinking about communities that are disproportionately impacted. By certain forms of environmental harms. And that's been by and large people of color, that's been also tribal communities. But , what the center wants to do is get at those who are most that are worse impacted, those who are most marginalized, those who are most burdened.

And data shows very clearly that the most burdened communities have been black environmental justice communities. They're largely in the south. All we have to do is think about Cancer Alley. Uh, but, and the reason why we are uniquely impacted, of course, is because of the, the historical legacy of slavery in Jim Crow, which continues to [00:23:00] live on.

Uh, so those are the kind of communities I'm talking about when I'm talking about environmental justice. Communities in the center seeks to partner with environmental justice organizations that serve our communities.

Erica: On the GIS piece, well, , my perspective has to do with place, I think place is connected intrinsically, to environmental justice.

And I'm thinking about the work that you are doing training, um, environmental justice organizations. Is there a role for us as North Star to play and perhaps helping to put some of the GIS tools into the hands of these communities? And what might that look like for you?

Montina Cole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm so happy you mentioned that.

And me kind of contextualize a little bit. So one of the first things that the Center is doing through its first program, which is called FERC for All, is being involved in two gas pipeline cases. They are mega cases pipeline proposals. Uh, one is called the South System expansion, four SSE, four for short, and the other is called Mississippi [00:24:00] Crossing.

MSX, uh, we're talking about, you know, a total of over 600 miles of new pipeline. SSEE four run through, um, Alabama and Georgia. In this, uh, Mississippi Cross and would run through Mississippi and Alabama. And we're talking and you can guess whose communities, you know, are being disproportionately targeted.

So this is a very important case because we wanna make sure that our communities want, are aware of what's happening. Right, and we're coming into this case, it's already ongoing. It's in the application, uh, stage, but there's still opportunity to get involved to do things like file comments, to organize on the ground.

And so one of the things that's really important is we try to educate not only ourselves, but others that we want to influence is to be able to explain what this thing means. Who's being impacted, and this is where maps really are very important tool. Now at ferc, what the companies, the, the pipeline developers are required to do is to file what, what essentially paper maps.

I mean, they're in PDF form format and uh, [00:25:00] online amongst hundreds of other pages. You know, in their, in their applications. We're talking like ultimately thousands of pages that are in these dockets that you have to, you know, look through, they're buried. You have to find 'em, and then you look at it.

And you want, and the, the question is, you know, how am I impacted? Does that piece of paper answer the question? No, I mean, you don't have an ability to even figure out where you are on that map. So that's why it's really important, I think, to have interactive maps in the kind of interactivity that a GIS map, uh, uh, allows us to to have, and to not only be able to place ourselves to see , where the places are, you know, , where I'm situated, where's my school?

Where's my church? You know, where are the hospitals that, how close are they to the pipeline? Not only to be able to see that, but to be able to add in layers, right? When we're talking about the cumulative impact of these pipelines, there's a certain baseline that these pipelines already come to, what I call the black baseline.

And that is that you're by and large gonna be looking at higher rates of respiratory illness, cancers and things like that [00:26:00] because we are disproportionately, uh, near already polluting facilities. So where are those facilities? We need to see that. We need to be able to visualize all this, so where we are and then all the layers that impact us.

And I think that's a very important thing that, you know, GS GIS mapping can, can provide. It's something that we really don't have. We've had some people step into the gap. You know, some organizations have mapped certain parts of it, but there's a critical need really for folks to map the Mississippi Crossing Pipeline.

That's something that's not been done at all, . I mean, one of the meetings that I've convened with some of the ej EJ folks around this, this, um, pipeline, one of the folks said, you know, hey, I wanna go and talk to my, you know, representative about this, and I need some handouts.

And so, you know, that'd be great to be able to take a snapshot of that, what I just described, put it in the handout form and then, hand it to them. So, 'cause we know everybody's not, you know, on the internet because of the digital divide. So it's just many benefits that can accrue from having GIS mapping and it's something that's really, really needed in [00:27:00] this space.

Erica: Thank you so much for that. I, I, I know that we've got a call to action coming, but I'm taking this as a personal call to action, uh, to try to galvanize the North Star community to see how we can support the work that you are doing at the center.

Montina Cole: Hmm. Hmm. Definitely the mapping. Uh, if we, you know, on my, my wishlist right now is an interactive map, GIS map of the Mississippi crossing, uh, route for sure.

And I should say too that is not just necessary for these pipelines. These are only two of many pipelines that are still, that are being proposed for the south. Uh, there's the SSEP pipeline, there's the border, uh, boardwalk pipeline. I could name many others and more coming down the pike. Because under the curtain curtain circumstances in which we live now, the environment is such that, you know, people are coming forward and we're seeing proliferation of polluting pipelines and other harmful infrastructures .

. Oh,

Erica: baby drill. Drill. [00:28:00] Baby drill.

Montina Cole: Okay. Exactly.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Martina, . I wanted to, I'm so excited about this project. I know I've been kind of following you and vol volunteering to sit there and look like I know what I'm talking about when I don't, but I'm learning so much. When you talk about the pipelines and earlier you mentioned cumulative exposures, and I'm seeing a total connection between all of the pipelines you just talked, not just the two, but you said there are many more and many more coming.

Wouldn't it be great to have a map check this uh, this interactive map also have on it, uh, information on different health effects caused by 'cause. These are gas pipelines we're talking about. Of course, they're. You also see other types of pipelines that, some of which may travel a similar route, right?

Mm-hmm. And so the exposures can be from, um, one or more different sources. So it seems like knowing that if a person say, I put my area code in and I know that in my, depending on what I'm exposed to, what [00:29:00] pipeline I'm near, that these are some of the health effects that have been reported, or these are some of the potential health effects from different contaminants.

And I'm wondering if that, , one of the reasons that, this would be so, I, so important and it's so imperative, and I think in our conversations, you've said something about this can be replicated for a lot of different you know, a lot of different things outside the pipeline.

Montina Cole: Hmm.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: You know, and can you just talk briefly about that, about the larger picture of how important this work is and this mapping is.

Montina Cole: Sure. I mean, in terms of other context, as I said, you know, there's other pipelines coming down the pipe. You know, so we have the opportunity to use these tools in other.

Cases, but also, you know, there's other forms of infrastructure that may not necessarily be on infrastructure that people want in their backyard. And rightfully so, uh, data centers come to mind, right? And all the issues that they present, you know, use of water, uh, noise other [00:30:00] types of things.

And that could be, you know, worth a webinar in and of itself just to talk about data centers. But let's see where they fall on the map. Let's visualize that. And in fact, what we see is that, you know, some of these pipelines are providing that as one of the big reasons why they're so-called needed because, oh, we need this gas mm-hmm.

To be able to fuel the power plants that will then in turn serve these, uh, these, the data centers. Mm-hmm. Now we're seeing also, of course, that these projected, the projected need, uh, is, is overinflated and a lot of data is beginning to support that. But this is being, you know, touted as something that's needed and they're being constructed.

In many of our communities, I mean, you know, think about Memphis, that's just a, you know, a horrible case study about what can happen to a community, uh, and all the ga, the gas fired plants that are powering, uh, that turbines that are powering that center. So it'd be great to also, when we talk about layers, yes.

The, the health indicators, like you mentioned, Adrian. But other polluting infrastructure and that I would add to that. Data centers. Yeah. So that's something, whenever anybody's thinking about or [00:31:00] hearing about a data center come into their community, that's, let's get the mapping out and let's see what other factors are there that need to be shown in that map.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: And I'm so glad you mentioned data centers because that will be , the next podcast after this one. Um, so, so this is a perfect segue into the importance of that and how these are all connected. So, how cool is that, that you know, we can do that plug and, and let people know what's to come.

And I appreciate that and I think it's important to, with all of the information that, gosh, that we've learned today, I think it's important to, I. To talk a little bit more. You know, people normally have three main questions, right? What is it? How does it affect me and what can I do about it? And we've gotten information, particularly when it relates to these pipelines and the importance of mapping on what it is, what the pipelines are all about, and why they're a concern.

And we talked a little bit about general health effects, knowing that , our marginalized communities, have higher. [00:32:00] Adverse health conditions from their location and the things that they are exposed to and that they have to live with. But now I wanna ask you, you know, all this, it's not gloom and doom.

I mean, you know, we talk a lot, generally in the EJ space in other spaces about community involvement and participation and engagement. And not just communities, but those of activists and advocates, uh, for these issues. So. I know you've been focusing on the, uh, two pipelines in Alabama and, um, I mean Mississippi and, and Alabama.

So the MSX and the SSE four. So where can we get involved since that's the immediate threat that the center is focused on? What can people do? What have people done and, uh, where can we fit in?

Montina Cole: Right. Yeah, I mean, I guess I would suggest many different ways. One, first of all, please feel free to reach out to the center, um, and the website is Climate Center for [00:33:00] ej.org.

I would also suggest that folks reach out to the Office of Public Participation, OPP, which is at ferc. OPP is actually a wonderful, uh, what I think of is the bright shining light at FERC right now. It's a wonderful office that was created when, uh, chairman Rich Glick was there, and it's, it is created to support regular folk who don't have big attorneys.

Consultants and everything representing them at ferc regular folk who don't know much about FERC to help and support them in engaging at ferc. Uh, so they promote public participation at ferc, uh, and it's run by a wonderful director, Nicole c Ramen. You can just go on FERC's Deck website.

You'll see the, the, the page for OPP, the Office of Public Participation, and they have all sorts of, they'll talk to you, they're very responsive, talk to you on the phone. They have tons of different explainers and how to sheets about how to file comments at ferc, how to get involved, breaking down complex, uh, type concepts.

So I would encourage you to reach out to OPP. I, again, you know, [00:34:00] just say, uh, look into taking the, um, Chism, the Chisholm, uh, navigating FERC for Justice certification course, which I taught. And also to monitor FERC dockets. And again, this is something that IOPP and others can help folks with to just try to monitor what's going on at FERC and see what's coming down the pike, uh, to get in front of things.

I'd encourage people to join coalitions or groups. That are already involved seek out environmental justice organizations that are, uh, involved in some of these things. A lot of the times, like Deep South Center like, uh, we act so many different other organizations. And the, these are kind of ways, point of entry into getting involved. Uh, and then once you're involved, you have the opportunity to do things like file comments, attend scoping sessions, uh, and other things. So I'm very, very happy to, you know, hear from anybody who wants some help. And how do I get involved? Uh, so the center, OPP at ferc EEJ organizations.

Uh, and then just going onto FE'S website to try to monitor what's what's happening.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: And you guys, uh, the center has been [00:35:00] doing that for, in relation to these pipelines or where are you in that process with

Montina Cole: work? Right, right. Again, very, very beginning stages and we came into the, you know, this case, these cases midstream, but yeah, we've had the opportunity to do, some open house sessions where I just invite people to ask any questions that they may have about, you know, how do I, the same thing you're asking Adrian, how do I get involved?

How do I file a comment? Um, you know, how do I logistically do that, which, and then, you know, substantively what should I put in it? Um, and then just having some kind of educational information sharing type meetings too. Among, among EJ folks. Yes.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Mm-hmm.

Montina Cole: Mm-hmm. We've been doing some of that.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: And you all have submitted comments then.

Montina Cole: Not the center per se, and the center is not really engaging in, in that way. But what we wanna do again, is to support and uplift our communities, our EJ organizations and the communities that they represent in putting forth their stories themselves.

Supporting them in, in doing that.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: And people can submit maps like the, that you were discuss, you guys were discussing earlier, the GIS maps. People can [00:36:00] submit that as part of their comment.

Montina Cole: Sure. I mean, I think that people could certainly, you know, one you know, take a, PDF picture for lack of a better word, and submit it or a link to it that people could go on and see.

Absolutely. People could do that. And that's also, that's a very good idea to, that's a very good thing to do, you know, not just having just this written, you know, one piece of paper. You know, they say a picture's worth a thousand words, right? But the gi a link to a GIS GIS map, that's worth, you know, how many more hundreds of words for people to actually see it.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Thank you for all of this great information. And then I have, because I'm a lawyer, I can't help myself. I have a, a litigation question. So would these maps that you know, we've all been discussing be helpful in litigation against companies that want to, for example, expand a pipeline or enhance a pipeline, would they be useful?

In addressing some of the claims or concerns that that company might make in their applications. For example, to FERC [00:37:00] are some of the things that they may say for, I'm just get, there are no communities nearby or nobody's gonna be at risk, or something like that.

Montina Cole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I think that it would certainly bolster our case, bolster comments and putting, inputting this just another, you know, more evidence, more facts, right?

Mm-hmm. We need to not just be relying on what the company says. Uh, okay. FERC is an independent agency and it should be weighing all the information coming in from all different interested parties. And the more that we can make things plain at ferc, that's good. And then also it'll be made plain for the, the courts to the extent that we get an unfavorable decision, which of course, we know happens a lot at ferc.

And then it gets appealed to, uh, to the higher level to a court. So that would also be an evidence and, and reviewed by a court as well,.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Thank you for that. When you brought up the Buckingham County issue against the, uh, a CP pipeline, I immediately remember because I too was one of the people who had some [00:38:00] you know, we, we participated in a people's, uh, people's, um.

Montina Cole: Tribunal

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Tribunal, thank you. For against, um, human I'm gonna say human atrocities, that wasn't the correct term, but I remember that the community had created, and it's the friends of Buckingham County had created this map, and that particular map was a map of this grave site that would've been up.

Uh, ended, had the pipeline gone through and they were able to show on this map where their ancestors had been buried by using, some sort of, um, data process. You remember what I'm talking about? And they were showing that if you disturb this sacred ground. That these are our ancestors and this is one of the small things that can happen, you know, small but important things, you know, because this is our history, and as you said, it was a freedman's community that means created by former slaves or the [00:39:00] descendants of former slaves

Montina Cole: right, yes. I'm, I'm so happy you mentioned that. That was, that was a remarkable thing, right?

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Yeah.

Montina Cole: And even picked up what they call what the sunken graves. They didn't have the headstones. Right. But like you said, they were able to detect it using that technology. Right. All that was just so was wonderful. And they brought that to bear and they brought it to bear successfully before court.

Right. Not, uh, with respect to the FERC case, because there's many different sometimes related cases when it comes to these projects and they appealed, uh, a negative decision that they got from a state regulator. Regarding a, a air and water quality permit that was needed. And the court took that type of evidence, you know, that's, that's, there was other different kind of evidence that they put forward, but they were, the court was cognizant, you know, what was put forward.

So again, it's very important to get all these things in the record, 'cause it can certainly help to support your case, uh, before on appeal. And they, they won that case on appeal.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: So getting this information, you know, although we say for FERC, it can be used if I'm reading you right. [00:40:00] At the state and local level too.

It can be used in a variety of ways. That's how impactful this sort of information is.

Montina Cole: Absolutely.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Yeah. Okay.

Montina Cole: Absolutely. For, for regulatory agencies, before courts in community meetings, just as educational tools before, uh, representatives, elected officials at the state and local level, uh, many different, many different, uh, ways it can be used and then to be used in different contexts later.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, also to ma uh, mention that it's important. I think that not only that we map the harms, but also the good things about our communities. 'cause when I think about the black baseline, it's not always just about the adverse, our challenges, but also our treasures. Right. And I know, Erica, you mentioned Place, place is very important to us.

So we wanna be able to see and visualize, you know, the great things, the things , our cultural heritages, you know, sacred spaces, grave sites, you know, that's very important to us to be able to, to lift up what is wonderful about our communities in which we don't want to be [00:41:00] adversely impacted by these polluting infrastructures.

Mm-hmm.

Erica: I remain excited about the opportunity to put tools in the hands of people who are not, say the experts in leveraging these tools. And there are things that we are able to do now that were so difficult, even five or 10 years ago, but now we've got. , In our hands, in our cell phones, the ability to create story maps or the ability to collect information and to share it with analysts.

I, I'm a data nerd. I'm a blurred, a proud blurred. But I recognize that even if you're looking at a spreadsheet with numbers and addresses, it's when you see. See it actually graphically depicted, it has a totally different impact than that spreadsheet

I I can't stop thinking about the importance of the graphic and the visualization of data, of places of, um, as you said, not just harms, but our treasures as well. So I, I'm excited about the work that you're doing, excited about the opportunities [00:42:00] that we now have to help further the work .

Montina Cole: Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited as well,

Erica: and we're coming to about the close of the hour. Montana, it is an absolute pleasure to meet you, Arienne. I'm always excited by the people that you bring to the North Star Gaze, and you have elevated what we are doing here at the North Star gaze by the quality that you bring to these conversations.

But Montana, you've just. You know, my head is a little bit exploding right now as I think about all the things that you do and all the things that we might be able to do to to work with you. But thank you so much for your time today. We truly appreciate you.

Montina Cole: Thank you again. The privilege and the pleasure is mine.

Thank you so much.

Dr. Adrienne Hollis: Thank you, Martin. Thank you, Erica.

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