Aisha Jenkins Interview_Part II

Erica: Okay, we're back with another episode of the North Star Gaze and the final in our series on Women in GIS. If you have not been listening to this series, I strongly urge you to go back and take a listen. Over the last three months, we heard from Lynn Pinder and Kimberly Armstrong, co-founders of the Baltimore Green Justice Workers' Cooperative.

[00:01:00] We spoke with Kaylan Soares, who's a young GIS professional doing amazing work and networking while she begins her career. Elizabeth Cotton, who's co- is founder of Black Tech Link, spoke to us about her work delivering programs and opportunities specifically for our community when the political environment has changed in a way that is not so favorable for that.

All of these discussions were co-hosted by Eva Reid. Eva's been a force for women in GIS for a number of years, always looking for ways to create dialogue and opportunities for women in GIS, and I'm so grateful to her for giving so much of her time and talents to this series. And it was particularly interesting to have her as my co-host for the final two episodes, both of which feature Aisha Jenkins, who's the person who first came up with the idea for and the energy to make the North Star Gaze happen.

As a co-founder of North Star GIS and the original producer of the North Star Gaze, as a mom, as an educator teaching GIS at Howard [00:02:00] University, and now in her role developing programs to implement GIS internationally, Aisha has a lot of unique experience and a lot to say about the challenges and opportunities for Black women in GIS.

So much so that we had to split this interview into two episodes. FYI, there's a very unrehearsed section in this episode where we touch on some of the sticky points about being Black women in a tech environment. I opted to leave this section in so that you could hear us expressing the feelings we had and the necessity of saying some things that might be uncomfortable.

So here we go. Let's jump in. Last week you, or two weeks ago, you heard part one. Now we're going to pick up at a point I found interesting, and that's where Aisha speaks about facing what happens on the other side of fear. So thank you for listening. I look forward to your feedback

Aisha Jenkins: In what world do I get to sit in rooms where policy is being made? In what world do I get to sit with young people who look like me and introducing them to GIS? In what dream scenario do I get to lay the groundworks for being the voice and the head of the next generation of GIS professionals?

And so when they say that [00:06:00] everything you want is on the other side of fear, after a 25-year career and burning out and not knowing what comes next- Everything you want comes on the other side of fear

Eva Reid: I really, really appreciate that. I think that's a conversation a lot of us, if we're not having that conversation about what is on the other side, we should be having it. I think partly for me it's a conversation I'm having with myself, not necessarily other people. But, you know, what is that? What is that line, and then what is on the other side?

And on the other side is a lot of opportunity. So I, I, again, really appreciate your, your comment there. Absolutely I think you've already talked to this a bit. I think I'd like to ask you explicitly though, um, what are some of the barriers that you have faced [00:07:00] as you're trying to build, for example, you'd mentioned that you're building curricula around GIS.

What are some of the barriers that you faced in doing that? 

Aisha Jenkins: Um, you know, as a Black woman, there are always barriers. There are brick walls, right? And, you know, to the extent that I can control that, I can't. I think the realization that I am one person, so the ability to scale, and I think each of us who are in only in the spaces that we, we, we, we work, in the spaces that we, we have the most impact, right?

Even North Star, a tiny organization, we struggle to scale, right? Because we're bootstrapping for the most part, right? There's nobody there, you know, urging you. There, there are very few mentors, right? Because our bandwidth is so thin. I'm a single mom, and [00:08:00] so my days have to have a clear start and a clear ending because I'm one person.

And so as much as I would love to be involved in every aspect of the, the different projects that I'm working on, I can't, and, you know, that frustrates me. And so the barrier that I am currently facing is that I am one person with limited capacity, and I have to pick and choose. Um, you know, the, the projects that are going on on the African continent, I would love to go to every one of those events, you know, to be the fly on the wall, to make those connections, to encourage, the users.

My gosh, to, to learn, like the, the learning opportunities are just endless. But I can't, right? Because I've got a little one who's graduating. I've got another little one whose birthday is coming up, right? So then the bandwidth is thin. And then in this country, there's not a lot of [00:09:00] infrastructure for parents in general, so I get tired, right?

And then that limits what I can do. So it really is a shame that I will never reach my full potential. And that, that's, that's probably not the worst thing 'cause I would probably just push and burn out. But, um, but there, there is a lot of opportunity. I know things right now are daunting, um, for Black women, with us appearing to be seen as dispensable.

Um, but what I would say is I would encourage people to look outside the box, and it might force you to, to really lean into your power. And I know for me, some of my biggest fears is- What would I do if I didn't have these barriers, if I didn't have these constraints? Like, I would probably be a meteorite that would shine [00:10:00] so bright and then fizzle, right?

And so, so, you know, I would challenge people, just a little bit of that magic will go a long way, right? But it is, right now it's a fearful time. And whoever survives this fearful time, having leaned into their full power and not believing what mainstream is telling you about Black women, I think there's power on the other side of that

Erica: That's awesome.

That's a fascinating approach that you've had to the work that you're doing with the United Nations.

In your role as an instructor at Howard, um, and thinking about the role that you previously occupied at Esri, how, how did you make that transition from that work coming from a corporate environment to academia? Can you talk about that a bit, please?

Aisha Jenkins: It's not common knowledge, but I was an adjunct for a community college, for [00:11:00] about 12 years. Concurrent with my work, um, at Esri. Um, and I stopped doing that in 2018. So I had always been tied to doing some form of teaching so making the bridge into Howard wasn't a leap.

It ended up happening from, one of the, connections at the North Star homecoming event. I wish that more people would take advantage of what that event represents. It's a smaller event, more intimate, but that means that you get to meet one-on-one, and you get to talk with people, and kind of go deeper than, what you normally would do at a larger conference.

I'm always going to genuinely engage with people, because I'm curious about people, I like to talk, I like to know what people do. And then genuinely engage with people and then always showing up. Those are my, my superpowers. All of my success has been due to [00:12:00] genuinely engaging with people and showing up, because sometimes nobody else shows up, and it's just you, and then there's this opportunity, and you're there, so the opportunity becomes yours, right?

And so I just show up. Um- So showed up at the homecoming event, and so there was, there was a need and there was a desire to, , see more of GIS at, at Howard. Clinton Johnson got, the, program started, initiated, taught the first class, and then I got asked to teach in the fall. And so I had all the credentials, so, you know, just sent all of that in, um, and then, you know, essentially learned what I needed to learn, put together the course, and then I was teaching.

The key difference is that I am not an academic, right? I came, you know, from a tech environment, right? And I bring that kind of an energy. And I think it's a nice [00:13:00] juxtaposition to have someone who doesn't talk academic, but who will, you know, get really fine-grained about, "Here's what you need to do.

Let's take this resume and let's work this resume," right? You need this and not that, right? I think that, you know, for somebody who can get down to brass tacks and quickly, um, establish a rapport and trust, right? And so then as I'm talking to these young people, I'm having real conversations, real talk.

I think that that matters for this generation that's about to, to, to come out. We need to approach them differently. So that's how Howard came about. No looking back. You know, I, I kind of put in the universe that I wanted to be in different places the next time around, um, this next, um, stage in my career, and I am absolutely in different places.

And whereas I was working in predominantly White spaces and being extremely frustrated, now I'm in predominantly Black spaces being [00:14:00] still mildly frustrated. But, I get to, to be where I feel I'm more impactful and not taken for granted. Um, and so I appreciate that. 

Erica: Thank you for pointing that out.

You, you mentioned something earlier about how, um, GIS was taught in a very generic fashion. What do you think is still missing in how GIS is taught, especially when it comes to the topics of equity and justice? 

Aisha Jenkins: I think it's still the majority population has this fear of getting it wrong, saying the wrong things, knowing less in a very obvious way, right?

Being called... Sometimes I think you're afraid of what exists inside of you. Okay. And I'll tell you this. My, my daughter's a walking encyclopedia, random books of knowledge. And I'll just be like, "This child just keeps talking." And then I realized I do the same [00:15:00] thing. The things that frustrate people- are the things that they project onto other people.

So not wanting to say the wrong thing because you're looking at people and be like, "You said that wrong," right? Not wanting to, to be seen as a racist, right? Because you are racist, right? , And, you know, we're all racist, right? But there's some people who have power behind the racism that they can execute it.

And so I think that once people get over themselves, like really get over themselves, then we open the door to a different type of conversation. Otherwise, we're still gonna have very generic conversations about GIS. Yeah. And one thing I'm not going to do, one thing that is embodied in all of us who have had to fight, is that we have this innate lived experience that is a game changer.

And so as I'm working on curriculum and what I bring into the Howard [00:16:00] classroom, is that unique lens. You can't buy it. You can read it in a book if you're not afraid of that book... Right? History is there for anybody to take. You can delve into the race relations in this country. You can delve into redlining in this country, the history of slavery in this country and globally, but that forces you to actually face some things in yourself and in your lineage.

Erica: Yeah. 

Aisha Jenkins: And a lot of people, opening that Pandora's box means that now you know this knowledge, you have to confront what you know, and people don't wanna do that. They wanna go and they want to yacht on the weekends, right? They wanna look at their 401and their portfolios and be like, " that's a nice nest egg," right?

But people don't want to confront and have the hard conversations . And having that hard conversation at 50, at 45, at 30, [00:17:00] it's something that can psychologically do different things to you. You don't know. But as a Black woman, I've always known this history. And I've had an entire career of wrestling and grappling with it, and understanding how it relates to me and how I feel about that.

Erica: So, I have admired Howard for many years. Howard is known as an institution that rewards excellence. That, that's their brand, right? Since you've been at Howard, can you tell us about one of your most rewarding moments as an educator? 

Aisha Jenkins: Oh, it's, it's so humbling. You know, we never see how people see us.

We just know what our nerves feel like, right? So every Monday and Thursday, I go and I prepare for this class, and, you know, I start out shaky and I'm just nervous. And, you know, when you teach virtually, you don't always see the students, and so [00:18:00] it's just like, is it landing? Is it hitting, right? And then you start to see it with their projects and, the questions.

And so, you know, I'm just putting my head down. So, um, just recently I had a couple of grad students. This was my first cohort of, data science students who graduated. I had them, as they entered the program and then as they left. And so the students were like, you know, "Hey, Ms.

Jenkins. I don't know if you make it to campus, you know, for this, but if you happen to be around and you wanna come to the hood ceremony, we'd love to invite you." And, you know, I did not go to an HBCU, I did not even go to my own grad school graduation, so I knew nothing what this was.

So I was just like, "Oh, okay. You know, I'll check my calendar. I'll see," you know? And so then a few weeks passed, and so then the students reached out again like, "Hey, Ms. Jenkins, um, you know, we, we would really like you to go." Two of [00:19:00] them were just like, "We would really like for you to come," you know?

And so they kept calling it the hood ceremony. Why didn't they... Why don't you just call it the graduation? That's the graduation ceremony. 'Cause I'm like, this is this event before the graduation. Okay. So anyway, so I looked at my calendar. Because they asked a second time, I kind of know like, okay, you're asking a second time, you kind of want me to go.

So I was like, okay, My schedule's clear. I can make it. Erica-

It was such an honor. They wanted me to be on stage to put their hoods on. 

Erica: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. 

Aisha Jenkins: So I, I knew nothing about this, so but, but also hear me out. So I get there, like Howard has this long hill. Walk up that long hill, I saw one student, I saw two students, I saw 15 of my students.

And so I'm like, "Oh my gosh," like I'm never gonna be one who's too cool for school. Like I'm taking all the pictures. I am, you know, video recording. I'm, I'm doing all the stuff. And so, you know, [00:20:00] I, so I got to take a picture with all of my students. And, you know, to meet them for the first time, you're just like, "Oh my gosh," like so overwhelmed, you know?

And I just got to be a part of, you know, their graduation experience. And so for me, that was just like, you know, I didn't know what they were asking me. I didn't know the honor they were bestowing upon me. And, coming from where I came from in my previous employment where it's just like, "But what about these 22 lessons that I created for Esri?

Am I gonna get a..." "No, you're not gonna get acknowledged for that, and in fact you're gonna get penalized for this, penalized..." And I was just like, I mean, I left so demoralized. I know deep inside of me what I have to offer, and my perspective is right. But at a time, you can just take but so many blows, and I was just done.

And so now to get on the other side and realize- [00:21:00] These are, these are, these are my kids. These are our kids, right? And so, yeah. So that was, that was great 

Erica: That sounds awesome. I, I'm keeping an eye on time. We are, we are basically at the four, so we're ... I'm gonna let Eva do this, and then we're gonna close up pretty quickly, 'cause I do not want to abuse your, either of your time.

But this has been awesome. Okay. Eva, I'm turning it over to you. 

Eva Reid: Um, I'm gonna call a time out here just to say, do we wanna do section four, or do we wanna go ahead on to what's next? 

Erica: Oh, I think we have to do four. 

Eva Reid: Okay, good. I think we have to do four. 'Cause that's what I was thinking. 

Erica: Yeah. 

Eva Reid: But I just wanted to 

confirm.

Erica: We cannot not do... We cannot not do four. 

All right. 

Um, but I did throw it in your lap because,

four is about your experience- .. as a woman in GIS. So yeah. Yeah, I mean- We gotta, gotta. We gotta do four. Have to. We,

we have questions. We could do four and be like, "Hard close." 

Eva Reid: We have questions. Gotta do it. 

Erica: Yeah. Okay. 

Eva Reid: So I, [00:22:00] again, we've sort of touched on this, but I'm going to explicitly ask you this time. What has your experience been as a woman building leadership in GIS? 

Aisha Jenkins: So kind of going back to people who touch the technology, I don't see a lot of people like me who touch the technology.

And so then that means that I'm a niche within a niche, right? Black GIS professionals, but then Black GIS professionals who touch the technology, right, is a smaller, um, market. And then to teach the thing that you touch, again, so that made me one in the department, in the company that I was in.

I was one. 

Eva Reid: Mm-hmm. 

Aisha Jenkins: That came with challenges, right? When I was teaching, I was... It was very, um, insular. I was very protected. I was most of the time on the road. But when [00:23:00] I wanted to become a parent, I needed to be more stationary, and so I moved into leadership. Big mistake. That's where you get the stereotypes because now you're seen as someone who could potentially move up and change culture, and we want none of that.

The powers that be want none of that. They wanna stay comfortable. They want conversations that are, you know, easy to understand. And so, so I dealt with a lot of microaggressions, right? I dealt a lot with standing in the gap for people who threw me under the bus, right? And a lot of that is, I have a higher power, and I still, as a professional, I wanna do my job well, right?

So those two things are driving. Regardless of what, what else is going on, at the end of the [00:24:00] day, I wanna do my job well, and I am going to still serve my higher power. Um, but you, you could see things, right? You, see what's happening. You understand the cliques. You understand the microaggressions.

Some days you turn away from it. Some days you confront it. And depending on which day you got me, it was what it was, right? So it wasn't an easy space to be in. Um, but then, you know, even GIS, still the tech fields have very few Black women. And make no mistake, Black women have a very different experience than Black men, and I say that due to Black men being able to tap into the patriarchy, right?

And the closer you are in white supremacy, patriarchy, and capitalism, you got two of those things because, well, you're working in tech, so you're not necessarily poor, right? And so then [00:25:00] that works in your favor, so now it is being quiet works for you, right? You can deal with a little bit of racism here and there, right, because you're still able to provide for your family, and that's the, that's the heteronormative structure that we exist within.

And so none of that really works for Black women except if you're far enough, the capitalism part works for you, but you still have to fight tooth and nail for that, right? And so what I have found is being in predominantly Black environments that are led by Black men don't necessarily protect me from anything.

I have been harassed. I have been silenced. I have been pushed aside. I have had my work claimed by other people Right? Um, and so that has been my overall [00:26:00] experience. Um, and so I tend to believe that the most diverse and the most, um, empowering spaces that I have been in have been led by Black women, right?

And if I take Howard, Howard is a historically Black college or university, it is Black woman led, but the diversity of the people that I work with, the diversity of the students that I have taught, has taught me a thing about refining that just a little bit, a Black woman-led environment. Because I think having been on the margins, you understand what is required to make someone feel like they belong, and you do that every day, and it's a conscious decision, and I have appreciated that.

That being said, my work at the UN, and just, you know, preface, anything that I've said in this conversation is my opinion, my [00:27:00] opinion alone, it does not represent that of, um, any of the organizations that I work with. The team that I'm on is a male-led team of African and European, um, persuasions.

Vastly different, right? And so it, it almost seems as if, I don't wanna say race does not factor in because obviously it does, but I think we're in one accord. And so then when you're in one accord that we just want this to be a great project, execute it well, and with the participants work- walking away with a particular skill set to carry them into the future, then the focus is on the work and the skills.

Eva Reid: I feel like that was some good advice without me asking you what advice do you have. W- but what advice do you have for women in GIS? And, and, you know, you can define [00:28:00] that however you like, if you'd like to refine that further. Um, what advice would you give to women who are trying to navigate some of these challenges, probably navigating challenges that we haven't even talked about yet today?

Um, tell us a little bit about that. 

Aisha Jenkins: So I would say some general career advice for, Black women is you're not ... Don't believe your press. Don't believe that press. It will build you up to tear you down. Believe what you know that you know that you know, and who you are. Stand on that firm ground.

Don't get caught up in titles. Don't get caught up in, you know, salaries. Don't get caught up in any of that. But stand firmly on your skills and what you know that you bring to the table, right? I, I told you that my superpowers are that I show up [00:29:00] and that I, engage in, um, a genuine way.

Those are my superpowers. No one has given me those. No one can take them away, right? And then own your voice. Right? So when I stepped away from my, my former job, I was not gonna step away and go hide under a rock. I stepped away, and I was transparent about me burning out and me having to, be forced to make that decision of, yeah, this is not for me anymore, right?

I had to, to take a real, um, honest look at myself and realize, yeah, I should've left three years ago because I had outgrown. And when you outgrow something, then you become unwieldy and hard to manage, right? Because, you know, let the genie out of the bottle. Let it out. And so I did that. But, own your story, [00:30:00] because nobody can take that story away.

Nobody can take that experience away, and that gets filtered into each of the projects that I've done after I left that role. And , it is a part of me, right? So when I talk to my young people about harnessing your voice and structuring your narrative and how you tell that story using GIS, there is that telling of the story that people don't always really get.

And having 15 weeks to get them to harness those voices, those projects are amazing, right? But, you have to know who you are outside of the titles. Very rarely will people meet me and say, "Okay, you know, you work for this company. You do that," because I don't lead with my, resume. Never have.

And that keeps you humble, right? You can, you can strip me bare, right? Take away all those [00:31:00] titles, but at the core I'm still gonna be who I am. And then hold onto joy, right? Hold onto joy and the newness of things and experiences. Like, I just turned 50. And I was giddy as a schoolgirl at graduation because I was meeting my peers in person for the first time.

I was having this, this novel experience for the first time because I didn't go to my grad school graduation. So this was the first grad school graduation I'd been to. And to look at all those beautiful faces and, you know, lift every voice and sing and all, . I was, I was smiling ear to ear.

Like, my face hurt, I was smiling so much. Um, but that's how I want to show up. I don't wanna be so, serious about myself that I miss the opportunities to lean fully into joy. And [00:32:00] so, those would, be my bits of advice, right? Don't get caught up in titles and money.

Know who you are, own your voice, lean fully into joy, show up, and then make these genuine connections. And that's it. 

Eva Reid: I love it. I love the joy piece too. That's something I think we forget about. Like you said, we're, you know, kind of doing the job and getting the things done, and we forget about that piece.

Yeah. I think that's so important. And I, you know, I try to live that in my life. I don't know that I'm doing a great job of it. Mm-hmm. But at least I'm trying and I'm making an effort to do that. Yeah, yeah. So but I really appreciate the reminder, and I think it's a reminder to all of us to do that. The, the last question that I have sort of in this vein is what can organizations do to better support women in GIS?

Aisha Jenkins: Hmm.

I think first you have to acknowledge that there's a problem, and there's a potential that you are part of [00:33:00] that problem

I think, you know, humility is, is something at an organizational level, at an individual level, I think it would go a long way to, to balancing the scales

But everybody, if everybody's saying it can't be me, it's somebody And who? 

Eva Reid: Somebody does have to step up 

Erica: Yep. Yep. Uh, I'm gonna ask the question that, uh, Eva usually takes with our guests. Eva, if you don't mind, Eva usually gets to ask this question, but I'm going to ask this as we wind down this tremendous time with you.

I also think I already know part of the answer, so I wanna hear what you're gonna say, Aisha. What's next for you? What's ahead? What are you building, exploring, or dreaming about? And for, in particular, what's coming for you and your [00:34:00] daughters?

Aisha Jenkins: I am not sure. You know? I think I am on this ride, and I'm open to the universe for, you know, whatever it has in store for me. I think, you know, I've maintained this type of flexibility with life that as long as those priorities are met, you know, my kids are, you know, happy and grounded, uh, as well as myself, then I'm open to whatever the universe has for me, right?

But yeah. So I don't, I don't know what comes next. I'm still in that, you know, that stage of people think that you're here, and meanwhile I'm trying to eat, right? And so how do I bridge that gap where people are just like, "We can't afford you," or, you know, "We can't..." Like, "What do we even do with you?"

You know, I think I've thought about going [00:35:00] back to school for a PhD, but I'm anti-education just because I'm antsy and I don't know what comes next. Then I've thought about, you know, going after some grant applications, and I think that type of focus really scares me. And so I don't know.

We'll see. 

Erica: Okay. Okay. I guess we're all gonna have to watch Aisha Jenkins and see what's ahead for Aisha Jenkins. And I gotta give a shout-out to Noelle and Camille who are just two of the most adorable young women, young girls that I have ever met. Mm-hmm. They are... They're just adorable, energetic, intelligent, and quite a testament to who you are in one of your roles, which is as a mom.

So, um- Yeah ... shout out Noelle. Hey, Noelle and Camille. Your mom is amazing. And I wanna thank both of you for, for participating in this episode of Women in GIS. Um, just grateful to you for [00:36:00] planting the seed, Aisha, that became, uh, The North Star Gaze. Thank you so much. And thank you, Eva, again for serving as my co-host.

I couldn't do this without either of you. Thank you. 

Aisha Jenkins: Well, thank you both. Thank you both. It's been a great time.

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