Erica: welcome back to another episode of the North Star Gaze, and this is the kickoff of our series on GIS and health. And I am just flattered and honored that Johnny Chip Allen has agreed to be my co-host for this series. Welcome, Chip. And I'm gonna tell you a little bit about Chip before we jump in.

So Johnny Chip [00:01:00] Allen is a public health expert. I've known him in his capacity of having over 20 years of experience in addressing health equity issues at the local, state, and national levels. Chip has worked in partnership with communities, governmental agencies, academic institutions, and more to develop strategies, policies, and to analyze data to improve the health of marginalized groups.

I've really been tremendously impressed, Chip, by the work that you do. I've known you to work in a number of different capacities . Um, these include working in Ohio as a disease intervention specialist, HIV program manager, and the director of health equity, all at the state health department.

You've also implemented statewide social marketing activities to respond to chronic diseases, developed standards for the creation of health education materials, led national efforts to apply market research analytic tools to advance health equity, and led the creation of enterprise-wide web [00:02:00] applications with GIS capability to measure program effectiveness of over $300 million in grant-funded projects.

When I tell you that Johnny Chip Allen is a powerhouse, trust me, he is. And not only is Chip Allen a powerhouse, he's invited a number of his colleagues and friends to join us in this series. And just one more shout-out, um, Chip Allen was the first Director of Health Equity at the Ohio Department of Health.

He earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in Black Studies from the College of Wooster and a Master's in Public Health from Tulane University. Um, now Johnny Chip Allen, who I refer to as Chip, had done all of these things, many of these things before I even met him. When I met you, Chip, gosh, over 15 years ago, uh, you were with the Ohio Department of Health, and I want you to go back 15 years, so we're now in 2026, go back to the early part of the 2010s, [00:03:00] and when you're looking at that period, did you already see GIS becoming such an important part of health equity work?

Can you talk to us about that? 

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Yeah, actually. Well, first of all, Erica, um, it's just really an honor to be on a podcast with you. You know, you read my bio, um, and yours is just as impressive. And so I also just wanna let listeners know at the onset that a lot of my GIS work has been greatly influenced by what I've learned from you over these 15 years.

So, um, you know, aren't we a pair? So I'm glad to be here. 

Erica: You flatter me, but thank you. 

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: So to answer your question, uh, and yes, when I... 10 years ago, I, or 15 years ago when we first met, I began to, I began to understand the importance of how GIS could be used to influence health outcomes, but I didn't [00:04:00] necessarily have the skill set then than I have today.

And so once you become exposed to GIS and you understand the importance of geography, it's like something comes over you. You, you become, in a sense, a convert to it, because you begin to understand how geography really impacts a lot of what we do. And so I've been really fortunate to have learning opportunities over these last 15 years since we've met to, to really hone in on my GIS skills and actually teach it to others in order to, to really improve optimal health outcomes

Erica: I saw you take what you were doing at, at the Ohio Department of Health and then expand use of it. So over the time that I've known you, one of the things that you did was you entered into a leadership role at the Directors of Health Promotion and Education. Can you talk about how that experience influenced [00:05:00] the way you think about community health and the work that you did there to expand the use of data in public health decision-making?

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Sure. So the Director of the Health, um, Promotion and Education was really my first national leadership role of a n- national nonprofit, where I was president, uh, of the board of directors. And so in that role, I actually had a year to, to really come up with an agenda or to implement an agenda that I would thought could improve health.

And I had so many wonderful colleagues, uh, working with me who were representing other states. And so with that kind of setup, I had a national platform to promote, uh, these really, really crazy ideas as it relate to health equity and, and GIS. And so one of the things I was able to do, um, I think I worked with you actually on this, you actually helped make this happen, is I worked with another really [00:06:00] good, uh, colleague of mine, Dr.

Steven Owens, who was the director of health equity at DHPE. And between us, we were able to develop the Community Marketing Analysis Program. And basically, what that entailed is I had a market research license with GIS capability, uh, at the State of Ohio. And I had maintained that license at that particular time, six or seven years.

And I, uh, implemented the widespread use of market research data at a state health department, not only to first address chronic disease, but then to, uh, address health equity. And so based on what I was actually doing at the State of Ohio, I was able to work with DHPE. We had funding through the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention through our cooperative agreement to actually implement a national program to give 13 other states the same market [00:07:00] research and GIS capability that I had in Ohio.

And so by doing that, we were able to show colleagues around the country how you can use GIS and a dedicated data set, in that case market research data with segmentation capabilities, to really begin to understand their communities beyond the, uh, health conditions or the burden of diseases that we usually use to characterize populations

Erica: Okay. I've seen you go from looking at individual health conditions or interventions to interlocking these.

So when I first met you, you were, you, you were doing some really fascinating work. I saw you going into barber shops and mapping where barber shops were so that you could do more effective communication with Black men who needed to get prostate cancer screening. I saw you do something similar with tobacco cessation, with food deserts.

There's so many things [00:08:00] that I saw you work on, individual topics. But then I saw you begin to link these things, to overlay multiple conditions or comorbidities. Mm. And I'd like you to talk a little bit about how your work evolved from looking at individual conditions to looking at things that happen, um, simultaneously to communities.

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Yeah. So, um, a lot of my work, um, in health equity, when I was the director of health equity at the state health department- I didn't have a particular de- disease focus. So unfortunately, a lot of, uh, and maybe fortunately, a lot of health departments are funded through categorical programs. So you might have funding for HIV, you may have funding for, uh, chronic disease, you may have funding for infant mortality.

And so even though many of those large programs have a lot of money and staff [00:09:00] to do their work, they don't-- they are not necessarily compelled to really think about how their interventions really go across different populations and deal with different health conditions. And so as director of health equity, part of the thing I had to do is I had to come up with a strategy to address health equity despite the fact that my colleagues were funded to do particular interventions.

And so, um, so that led me to think about how to use GIS to do that. And so one of the things that happened is I was working with a, uh, CDC, uh, fellow. A young woman, um, who was assigned to me to learn health equity. Um, I just mentioned her name 'cause she was so wonderful. Her name is Sarah Marr. And, um, you know, you can learn a lot from younger people.

So you think you're teaching and you learn a lot from them. But we were thinking about how we can use GIS to, [00:10:00] to really bring all these health conditions together. And so, um, we played around with different techniques with Excel of how to combine different datasets. Uh, I first used Microsoft Access to do that And then I learned about, um, you know, some of the products in Esri, and particularly like ArcGIS Online.

But a lot of other GIS systems can do this, but that was the one I was most familiar with. But what I did is I came up with this, this technique called convergence analysis. And basically what that does is allows you to take health data that's geographically referenced, and I like to use data, uh, at the census track level.

And I was actually able to bring all these different data sets into a GIS, uh, application. And then, um, using a technique either called spatial joins or actually, um, being able to, [00:11:00] um, in the GIS program, create filters that would allow me to take all these different health data. So data on asthma, data on lead poisoning, data on infant mortality, data on, um, and stroke and diabetes.

And I was able to actually take that data and create a filter inside of a GIS program. And I asked this one question, and the question was, what can I find all these disparate different health conditions that operated or existed at their highest prevalence in the same neighborhood? And then once I did that, I was able to actually show my colleagues that although that they were funded to work on different types of activities for public health, many times their different programs were reaching the same communities, or they should have been reaching the same neighborhoods, same communities.

But because we didn't actually have dedicated [00:12:00] mechanisms to talk to one another, we didn't necessarily know that we should have been focusing on some of the same neighborhoods. And so with that, I was able to then use that technique, uh, take it to CDC and every other place that I've worked to be able to help our colleagues understand is that even though funding, our funding might be separated or may be separate, the one thing that ties us all together is geography.

And if we can harness that, we could actually create more comprehensive public health interventions 

Erica: Actually pre-answered what was gonna be my next question. People tend to think about GIS as just maps, but you've shown how geospatial thinking can then influence policy and resource allocation because that's what it really boils down to.

And I know that one of the guests that you've [00:13:00] invited to join us in this series is with the Virginia Department of Health, Rex Anson. And I'm gonna... Rex, apologies in advance. Rex Anson Dwumena. Yes. Um, is going to be one of our guests. Can you talk a little bit about the work that you and Rex have done?

Which I think takes us from the maps to the policy to intervention. Can you talk a little bit about that, please? 

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Sure. Uh, so I first have to say Rex, uh, Rexford Anson Dwumena, uh, is one of the most brilliant public health folks that I've ever met, um, because he understands not only health equity, but he understands how to use data to tell the story.

And so when I first met Rex, I first met Rex through, uh, his then supervisor and my counterpart, Dr. Adrienne McFadden Taylor. And, uh, I was doing a presentation at CDC. I told them I needed help to really characterize health equity. And Dr. McFadden came to me afterwards and said, [00:14:00] "I'm going to-" Sent you a guide, and this guide is going to help you create the, what I always call it, the Health Opportunity Index.

And Health Opport- Health Opportunity Index is a, a multivariate tool that actually uses, uh, the statistical technique of principal component analysis. And what it does is it takes, like, 13 social determinants of health that are geographically referenced, and the literature says, um, have a great influence on health outcomes.

And Rex was able to create the index, um, for Ohio for me. And basically, what the Health Opportunity Index does is for every census tract, it gives you a composite measure, and that composite measure allows you to assess the overall opportunity of people within that census tract to achieve optimal health.

Not only that, the Health Opportunity [00:15:00] Index also helps you identify specific social determinants that you need to pay attention to in order to advance the health of the folks in that community. And so Rex was instrumental in helping me doing that in Ohio. And then when I became a contractor at CDC, and CDC wanted to do, at that time, uh, a health equity project, asked Rex, and then also another one of your guests, uh, to help me build this system to take what I was doing in Ohio and then create a tool for the entire country.

Now, the reason why I just wanna take a minute to say how profound it was to work with Rex on these projects Is because one of the hardest things for people to do, I think in public health, is to talk about health equity and visualize it. So oftentimes, We, so we have a lot of very talented and dedicated and brilliant people [00:16:00] who are working in the field of health equity.

But a lot of times I'll tell them that one of our biggest challenges is when we ask people to describe health equity, what they do is they start to describe the disparity. And then they will describe the reduction of health disparity, of a particular health disparity as health equity. And while if you can decrease any disparity, that's always good news.

That in and of itself is not necessarily health equity. You've done a good job with, at, at decreasing a disparity. You might have done a good job at decreasing a health inequity, but that doesn't mean that you have created an opportunity or conditions where everyone, no matter who they are, have the same chance for optimal health.

And so what the Health Opportunity Index does with GIS is it allows you to visualize what [00:17:00] health equity could look like without tying it to a particular disparity. So that is really profound, but I have to tell you about the, uh, G. Erica Phillips influence in that. So, um, so one of the things that when we start talking about health equity and we start talking about GIS, and even the use of different, um, data sets, people are enamored by GIS, and they should be because it's a wonderful tool.

But sometimes what happens is the data and information that you have is so vast that you really don't understand how to get started. And so when I was working with you, Erica, I remember this. You told me this in, uh, I believe it was 20, uh, I think it was 2016 you told me this And I said, "Erica, I have all this data and I'm trying to map, uh, I'm trying to do this work with market research, and I'm overwhelmed."

[00:18:00] And he said, "Chip, here's things that I need to tell you on how to, to get through that." You said you have to ask two fundamental questions. You said, "The first thing you have to think about when you're using data in GIS is, number one, what questions are you trying to answer? And number two, what decisions are you trying to make?"

So I call that the health equity gold rule, so I coined it, but just want you to know that every time I say it, I say, "G. Erica Phillips taught me that." And, and I'm, I'm serious, but the reason why I always say that is because n- no matter what GIS tool that you're using, you have to be able to answer those questions to be able to make the GIS technology work best for you and everybody that's working with you.

So I have to say officially thank you, G. Erica Phillips, for helping me coin the health equity gold rule. 

Erica: As flattered as I am, and I am flattered. And I think what you are describing [00:19:00] is the difference between making a map that's pretty and actually using geographic data to create a different outcome.

And, and I think that is critical. But I, I wanna go back and underline something that you were just saying, which I do think is truly profound. The difference between eliminating disparities and creating an environment where everybody has equal access to optimal health. And that's, that's what I learned from you, that eliminating disparities does not equal equity.

And I think that a lot of times w- because the disparities are so glaring, right? And they're due to many things, and I, maybe we can take a minute to talk about that, to talk about historic policies that continue to shape health outcomes today. So we have these disparities where we've got higher rates of, say, maternal mortality, higher rates of, uh, cancer deaths that relate to things that have [00:20:00] historically been true.

But eliminating those disparities does not mean that now we have health equity. So my hat is off to you for constantly being a person saying, "Hold on. This is good what you're doing, but that does not equal equity." So my, my hat is off to you. But let's, let's talk a little bit about how historic policies shape the outcomes that we're seeing today.

What do you see that you think started maybe decades ago that is continuing to have an impact on the communities that you serve today? 

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Well, first of all, we, um, that's an excellent question. And some of the things I'm going to say that happened, you know, 80, 90 years ago are actually still happening today.

So one of the things you hear a lot about is redlining. And so that was a policy, local policy that was supported by the federal government that actually helped create the neighborhoods that we see today. Um, and it basically was based on [00:21:00] who society felt that were desirable people to live next to and undesirable people.

And so they actually used this, they actually used geography to create maps, and they based the maps on, it was based on racism. So the reason why they called it redlining, because they had these different color schemes that they used to be able to characterize what they said back then was the creditworthiness of neighborhoods And so you had the top tiers that were blue and green.

So those were the neighborhoods that really you wanted to be, um, the blue neighborhoods were the best, uh, neighborhoods. The green neighborhoods, the maps colored green, um, they were, uh, still very desirable. Uh, the yellow map, the yellow coding of the map was that they were, uh, declining. And then the red, um, color of the map would be described as hazardous.

And so the hazardous, you know, if you were [00:22:00] Black, if you were Jewish, if you were immigrant, you weren't necessarily, necessarily seen, for example, or thought of as like white Anglo-Saxon Protestants, um, who were considered like the top tier of society. And so they created neighborhoods, um, and they actually structured neighborhoods based on this color scheme.

And now if you take some of those n- map, redlining maps, and then you look at particular disparities, they follow the same pattern as the way, how those neighborhoods were designed back then. But I, and, and so redlining, um, was, um, declared unconstitutional, and, um, so it is outlawed. But if you go back into our most h- recent history, you actually have major large lending institutions that are still continuing that practice today.

And the reason [00:23:00] why this is so important is because when we start thinking about these, uh, discriminatory practices, it really is a way of talking about structural racism. And one of the things that GIS is very, it can be used, uh, to ask, is a way of uncovering structural racism, not from just how it manifested itself in the past, but how it actually is still among us every day.

Um, one of the things that, um, I'm, um, reading, uh, a very, very good book on health equity. Um, the book, I think it's called Advancing Health Equity and Justice by, uh, Dr. Jamila Porter and, um, Aisha, uh, Mbeku. I think I, um, may have butchered her name, but I'll get it right. But I work with these, um, two incredible people [00:24:00] on a law and health work group, and one of the things that they talked about in terms of redlining is, um, you know, they termed it as, um, racial capitalism.

And the reason why I thought that was so important when we start talking about racial capitalism, because they talked about how- The whole issue of, uh, capitalism, um, was used to divide people who were similarly situated as it related to their, uh, economic conditions, their living conditions.

But one of the things they tried to use to separate folks, and, um, you know, the power brokers have been using it for years, is basically saying that you might be poor, you might be uneducated, you might be unhealthy, but at least you're not Black. And so what they did is the people who are similarly situated, they've used, [00:25:00] um, aspects of capitalism to be able to separate them.

To say even though you're, you're not well off, at least you're not this, you're not Black. So, and the reason why I mention this is because now we can use GIS technology to be able to show, for example, that some of the same disparities that African Americans are experiencing as it relates to chronic diseases or, um, addiction patterns, right?

That you can go, for example, to Appalachian, uh, the Appalachian, um, states, and they're dealing with the same things. The same things. Truly. And geography allows us to uncover that. 

Erica: Truly, truly, truly. Um, you know, it's kind of fascinating when you think about that, right? The, the things that are separating some of us should not be separating us at all, right?

Because the same, um, issues are affecting both communities. It might be a [00:26:00] very rural community that's predominantly white, or a very urban community that's predominantly Black, but poverty and illness are plaguing both of those communities for the same reasons. But that's, that's another whole issue. But I want to look forward a little bit and we have a lot of young listeners, I believe, listening to this podcast, and young people who are early in their careers.

What skills or perspectives do you think are most important if they are looking to work at that intersection of GIS, equity, and health? What do you think young people need to be thinking about and working on in terms of skills to prepare themselves to work in this area? 

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Well, I think the first thing is- For younger people, and even people who are not so young, to not allow people to circumscribe their thinking or to make them try to color inside of the lines.

It's okay for them to think broadly and to think about the [00:27:00] intersectionality of issues. Um, that's, that's the first thing is for them. And then also to be able to not let anyone make them think, for example, that you have to have a certain profession in order to learn this technology. I'll give you an example.

So, um, as you said, you know, my training is in public health. But I had to learn GIS largely on my own, and partly is because I did not have the money or staff to actually do a lot of GIS work. And so when I began to start to teach myself things like database technology, like relational database technology, and I started to learn GIS, there were a lot of folks I remember at the places that I worked were saying, "Why are you learning this?

You're not IT, you're not an epidemiologist, you're

not, uh, these, professions that use these tools." And I had to give myself permission to [00:28:00] break outside of the boundaries that they were trying to force me into, because you can't put a bushel basket on bright light. You just can't. And so if you have an idea, if you have a passion of being able to learn how to use tools to the better the conditions of the people that you're, you want to serve, then it's your responsibility to learn everything you can, even when people tell you that you're not supposed to be learning this.

And so hence I learned, I think through you, through, um, you know, the product that you were supporting at the time, that was my first entry to really learning GIS. Um, so I had to learn about different levels of geography. I had to learn about, uh, the different ways that, uh, the limitations of GIS and limitations of data.

And when I was doing that, there were people, some of them older, um, 'cause I was a little younger at the time, they were [00:29:00] telling me I shouldn't be doing that. So for younger people, and even for people who, uh, may be older in chronological age but their minds are still young, is to not allow people to circumscribe your thinking.

Because if you do that- They will not be able to come with the solutions that you could come up with because they don't have your insight. 

Erica: Yeah. 

Excellent. 

You know, it's funny. We interviewed a young lady, a few weeks ago, and I hope she's not embarrassed, Kaylyn Soares, and she was just delightful to listen to.

But one of the things she said during the course of the interview is, "Why is GIS not being taught, like, in elementary school?" Because everybody needs access to these tools and an understanding of geography. The science of it still belongs to some people of technical skills, but awareness of it has grown, especially during COVID.

The public became much more aware of dashboards, [00:30:00] mapping, health data. And I think there are some lessons for us to learn about expanding, um, utilization of these tools and helping to educate laypeople about these. But , what do you think the GIS community should carry forward or, or learn about making these tools more broadly available, or making geographic knowledge more broadly available to the communities that we serve?

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Sure. So I would say, number one, the GIS community should promote the message that GIS is for everybody, and that everybody can learn how to use it, and that there should not be any limitations. Now, there are certain levels of GIS education that people may not want to get into. So for example, people may not want to be able to learn about how to use spatial statistics.

I mean, it's very important to understand the need for spatial statistics, but GIS, you can use GIS to be very effective without [00:31:00] being an expert in spatial statistics. And, um, so one of the things that I've been doing, I've been some ways wanting to be a champion for, for GIS, and I've been allowing people to learn these free GIS tools that are out there that are very powerful, and if people really understood how to access them and just have a quick tutorial on how to use them, they could also be very powerful advocates for their community.

I'll give you an example. So one of the things that I'm doing in my current role is I'm, um, chief health equity officer at a, a city health department, and one of the things that I'm doing is teaching, um, the folks on my team on how to use GIS to make decision-making. So one of the tools that I have actually helped them learn how to use is something called, um, it's Community Commons or the CARES Engagement Network.[00:32:00] 

It is a free GIS tool. It has tons and tons of information, and I've taught people how to do this. Within one hour, I can teach them how to use this tool to run profiles on their community on a geographic basis. And it's interesting because once you begin to teach people how to use these free GIS tools, two things happen.

Number one, they begin to understand their community and themselves differently than they've done before. But the other thing that they're able to do is they're able to speak truth to power, particularly, um, when something may be happening in their community. The first thing people will say, or sometimes decision-makers will say is, "Bring me the data.

Show me the proof." And with these tools, once people learn how to use them, they're not as difficult as the people may think. They begin to empower themselves in ways that they've never done before. And so I've [00:33:00] been promoting the use of these tools, and I can tell you for the people on my staff are using these tools, they're thinking differently than they did before I got there 

Erica: I would love to see us , us being North Star GIS, do a recording of you. Do that hour-long recording. Show people where the tools are, where do you point to them, and take them through a tutorial about how they can use this. Many of the people that we've interviewed on The Gaze are community leaders.

They're not always themselves the users of GIS, but they are interacting with people in the community who want to know, how do I go before an assemblyperson or my borough president or my district leader and show them what's actually happening in my community?

You're a difference-maker, but you're helping to create the other difference-makers. So that, that leads me to ask you this question. You've been doing this work for a long time, Chip, and you've always been doing it at the highest level. You hold yourself to the highest standard possible. [00:34:00] What continues to motivate you?

What makes you keep going? And I know it's not always easy. I know that you face challenges. What continues to motivate you to do this work? 

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Well, I believe that what motivates me is that the people that we serve always deserve better. You know? And that if, uh, I can humble myself to understand that I'm not always the smartest person in the room, and that knowing that and being able to accept that.

Now, I'm not saying that I'm not smart, but I'm not always the smartest one in the room. And so you have to be able to learn from other people and keep yourself humble enough to learn new information, because the need doesn't stop. I mean, unfortunately, we're now in a very tense political climate where so much of the rights and so much of the things that we've, we've gained from, for example, the civil rights movement, the [00:35:00] women's rights movement, the LGBTQIA+ movement, all of these movements, these social justice and human rights movements, are really under attack.

We can't sit back and watch these rights and watch, um, people's lives being destroyed because people want to get back to a, quote unquote, "golden age," where that golden age really meant that only certain groups have certain rights. And so what keeps me motivated is that human nature, and I think just unfairness, will actually always rears ugly head.

But then for those of us who know better should do better. And just because you have gone to school and you've gotten, um, a master's degree or a PhD or a BA or a high school diploma, that's great that we have those accomplishments, but the learning doesn't stop, [00:36:00] and the problems of the world don't stop.

And so, for example, we talked about Rexford, who's gonna be on the, uh, show. You're gonna also be talking to a brilliant data scientist, Jessica Hancock, who by the way, I met through you. You remember how we met 

Erica: I do. 

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: I was dealing with some, some market research, and I needed some expert help on how to do some things.

And you, Erica, introduced me to, uh, Jessica Hancock, um, to actually be able to help me. And between you and Jessica, I learned so much in terms of how to understand and manipulate data to answer questions. And so the reason I'm saying that is because I've been very fortunate, who knows, even probably blessed, to actually have encountered people who have been willing to teach me what they know so that I can do better.

And so what keeps me motivated is there are people like you, there are people like Rex, there are people like Jessica, there are people- Like, uh, Dr. Letitia Presley Cantrell and Stephen [00:37:00] Owens and some just, Adrian McFadden, all these other great, wonderful people. Dr.

Julio Rivera, who also is going to be on our podcast. I've learned so much from these people because what, what helps to keep us motivated is that the problems won't stop, but it won't be bad always. But it will be worse if we don't use all of our talents, including the use of GIS, to make the world a better place.

So that's what keeps me going. This podcast is gonna keep me going, and hopefully when we get young people, and anybody, even if you're not a younger person, to be able to know that they can make a difference. If we can get them to be able to shine their light, in this case through GIS, that'll keep me happy.

Erica: That's fantastic. So I, I, I'm just gonna take a moment. So Chip does all of these wonderful things as a, a leader in the public health arena, but I've known Chip long enough to know that he's not just that. Chip [00:38:00] is a motorcycle rider. He is a proud dad of a daughter who is following in his footsteps in the public health arena.

He's a husband. He's a devoted son. He's a, brother, a brother to many, not just his biological siblings, but to others who look upon him as a brother. This is a man that anybody would want to have as a friend. I'm so proud to call you my friend, and I'm so honored that you've agreed to be on the North Star Gaze podcast this season.

We are gonna really chop it up with the guests that are coming on. You talked about the intersection of law, health, and, uh, policy. In addition to some of the guests that you've invited, I've invited Dayna Matthew, who is the Dean of George Washington School of Law and is the author of Just Health and Just Medicine, two books that delve deeply into the issues of health equity, and I can't wait for you and Dayna to speak with each other as well.

The sessions with Jessica, Dr. Julio Rivera. We're gonna, we're gonna have a lot of fun, so I hope you all will be listening to [00:39:00] all of the episodes on the intersection of health and GIS. And Chip, thank you so much again. 

Johnnie 'Chip' Allen: Thank you, Erica. Appreciate it. I'm looking forward to this. 

Erica: Fantastic.